just the obvious stuff on the confederate flag

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  • #26934
    bnw
    Blocked

    I might be wrong but I’ve always thought the present flag-the one subject to controversy-had little to do with heritage or state rights but was placed in governmental offices (So Carolina State Capitol) in 1962 as a direct response to federal civil rights legislation and anti segregation laws. That’s not heritage-unless one considers race discrimination heritage. There is a lot of good tradition and values that are part of the south but this particular flag does not represent that. It’s about slavery and segregation -period. Indeed when the south seceded from the Union they had several flags none of which was the one we know today.

    No. The stars and bars has been around since 1861 when it was used as the confederate battle flag. The stars and bars flag popular today is from 1863 and was used as the navy jack at sea.

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #26935
    wv
    Participant
    #26936
    Mackeyser
    Moderator

    bnw… the ONLY States right that was so egregiously being violated that the South en masse decided that they had to SECEDE from the Union was Slavery.

    This was NOT a matter of principle over a bunch of smaller matters. Heck, the Congress had already made in modern terms, ridiculous concessions toward the South, specifically the 3/5ths Compromise. They also agreed that new states would be admitted alternating free and slave in order to preserve the Union because and ONLY because… the ONLY issue SO important to the South that they would Secede…

    WAS SLAVERY.

    Really, it’s just not a matter of debate or opinion. It’s not for people to employ revisionist history or reframe it as if it’s still up for debate. The people AT THE TIME said loud and clear in unequivocal language that the SINGLE, SOLITARY reason for seceding was slavery. In their own words. In English.

    That’s pretty much the end of the discussion. At this point, we can either take the Secessionists at their word… OR, call them liars and THEN prescribe other notions and motivations toward and onto them that do not align with their rather forceful and direct statements at the time.

    I mean, that’s one way to go…

    I’d rather just take them at their word. I mean, hundreds of thousands of Southerners died for those pretty direct words… one would think that a goodly number actually believed them. Oh, and the agrarian economy they relied on them pretty much demanded slavery considering they had no other way to achieve economies of scale like the North did with factories (not that they were bastions of worker rights, health, and safety)

    Sports is the crucible of human virtue. The distillate remains are human vice.

    #26937
    waterfield
    Participant

    I might be wrong but I’ve always thought the present flag-the one subject to controversy-had little to do with heritage or state rights but was placed in governmental offices (So Carolina State Capitol) in 1962 as a direct response to federal civil rights legislation and anti segregation laws. That’s not heritage-unless one considers race discrimination heritage. There is a lot of good tradition and values that are part of the south but this particular flag does not represent that. It’s about slavery and segregation -period. Indeed when the south seceded from the Union they had several flags none of which was the one we know today.

    No. The stars and bars has been around since 1861 when it was used as the confederate battle flag. The stars and bars flag popular today is from 1863 and was used as the navy jack at sea.

    I knew that. The flag was Lee’s army flag in northern Virginia. But it was not used in governmental buildings until it was used as a response to the Civil Rights Act-in 1962-at least that’s what I recall.

    #26938
    waterfield
    Participant

    I might be wrong but I’ve always thought the present flag-the one subject to controversy-had little to do with heritage or state rights but was placed in governmental offices (So Carolina State Capitol) in 1962 as a direct response to federal civil rights legislation and anti segregation laws. That’s not heritage-unless one considers race discrimination heritage. There is a lot of good tradition and values that are part of the south but this particular flag does not represent that. It’s about slavery and segregation -period. Indeed when the south seceded from the Union they had several flags none of which was the one we know today.

    I knew that. The flag was Lee’s army flag in northern Virginia. But it was not used in governmental buildings until it was used as a response to the Civil Rights Act-in 1962-at least that’s what I recall.

    • This reply was modified 9 years, 3 months ago by waterfield.
    #26940
    bnw
    Blocked

    It was the confederate navy jack. The stars and bars began as a square battle flag earlier with the bars making a taller cross. What we see today is the navy jack.
    http://www.usflag.org/confederate.stars.and.bars.html

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #26941
    bnw
    Blocked

    bnw… the ONLY States right that was so egregiously being violated that the South en masse decided that they had to SECEDE from the Union was Slavery.

    This was NOT a matter of principle over a bunch of smaller matters. Heck, the Congress had already made in modern terms, ridiculous concessions toward the South, specifically the 3/5ths Compromise. They also agreed that new states would be admitted alternating free and slave in order to preserve the Union because and ONLY because… the ONLY issue SO important to the South that they would Secede…

    WAS SLAVERY.

    Really, it’s just not a matter of debate or opinion. It’s not for people to employ revisionist history or reframe it as if it’s still up for debate. The people AT THE TIME said loud and clear in unequivocal language that the SINGLE, SOLITARY reason for seceding was slavery. In their own words. In English.

    That’s pretty much the end of the discussion. At this point, we can either take the Secessionists at their word… OR, call them liars and THEN prescribe other notions and motivations toward and onto them that do not align with their rather forceful and direct statements at the time.

    I mean, that’s one way to go…

    I’d rather just take them at their word. I mean, hundreds of thousands of Southerners died for those pretty direct words… one would think that a goodly number actually believed them. Oh, and the agrarian economy they relied on them pretty much demanded slavery considering they had no other way to achieve economies of scale like the North did with factories (not that they were bastions of worker rights, health, and safety)

    They fought for states rights since the great majority did not own slaves. You confuse the mega farms of the wealthy at that time with the reality of the fighting man barely scraping by with a few acres and his family working the field.

    Fighting for a ‘Lost Cause’

    Reasons for risking life and limb varied, but they usually came down to four fundamentals: uphold state sovereignty, regional duty, group solidarity and protection of home and family.

    The notion that the average Confederate waged war to preserve slavery is a tenuous one at best. Only 6 percent of Southerners owned slaves, and 3 percent of those owned the majority. Recruits themselves referred to the war as “a rich man’s war and a poor man’s fight.”

    “Just as most Northerners did not fight to end slavery, most Southerners did not fight to preserve it,” wrote James I. Robertson, Jr. in Tenting Tonight.

    “By and large, owning slaves was the privilege of the well-to-do. The rank and file of the Southern armies was composed of farmers and laborers who volunteered to protect home and everything dear from Northern invaders, to keep their traditions and be left alone.”

    http://vaudc.org/confed_vets.html

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #26942
    Mackeyser
    Moderator

    You bring up an interesting point.

    I don’t doubt that the rank and file soldier while actually fighting wasn’t fighting for the pocketbook for the Southern plantation owner any more than the modern Marine fights for Haliburton or Tyco.

    That said, what I stated isn’t any less true. The southern states differed and argued with the northern states on a number of very contentious matters and NONE of them rose to the level where secession was remotely an option.

    Consider that. NO OTHER ISSUE was so contentious that the SOUTH as a confederation of states would secede from the Union. Nothing was even close.

    So, while “States Rights” is, in fact, the correct column heading under which war was waged, the ONLY States Right that was worth waging war? Slavery. It was a column with ONE entry.

    Thus, in essence, they become equivalent. The distinction cannot be made between the States Rights argument and the Preservation of Slavery argument because there was NO OTHER States Right for which the Southern States would remotely consider seceding and waging war. Nothing.

    So, while I do hear what you’re saying and I agree about the rank and file not being preoccupied with slavery while marching in crappy conditions or with musket balls flying past them or smelling gangrene or hearing a doctor perform grizzly amputations with a rudimentary bone saw, that does NOT preclude that those soldiers did NOT agree that the South should, in fact, be allowed slaves and believe in the institution of slavery and that fighting to defend that and the way of life that accompanied that was worth fighting for.

    Of course the average foot soldier had little to no stake in reaping the rewards of the war, north or south.

    Historically, they almost never do.

    Sports is the crucible of human virtue. The distillate remains are human vice.

    #26947
    wv
    Participant

    “Just as most Northerners did not fight to end slavery, most Southerners did not fight to preserve it,” wrote James I. Robertson, Jr. in Tenting Tonight.

    “By and large, owning slaves was the privilege of the well-to-do. The rank and file of the Southern armies was composed of farmers and laborers who volunteered to protect home and everything dear from Northern invaders, to keep their traditions and be left alone.”

    http://vaudc.org/confed_vets.html

    Well, its complicated aint it. You got lots of issues involving class, and patriarchy. and slavery, etc.

    I have no doubt the rich and poor in the South had some different interests,
    and the rich and poor in the North had some
    different interests. Indeed. Same as now.

    But there were some shared interests too, i would think. I mean if the poor in the South,
    didnt support slavery then why did they continue to VOTE for pro-slavery politicians?

    w
    v

    #26948
    bnw
    Blocked

    But there were some shared interests too, i would think. I mean if the poor in the South,
    didnt support slavery then why did they continue to VOTE for pro-slavery politicians?

    w
    v

    As is true today money talks. Plus you can only vote for who is running. That is still true today. How many who voted for Obama agree with his removing the Anti-Slavery provisions of the TPP?

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #26949
    bnw
    Blocked

    You bring up an interesting point.

    I don’t doubt that the rank and file soldier while actually fighting wasn’t fighting for the pocketbook for the Southern plantation owner any more than the modern Marine fights for Haliburton or Tyco.

    That said, what I stated isn’t any less true. The southern states differed and argued with the northern states on a number of very contentious matters and NONE of them rose to the level where secession was remotely an option.

    Consider that. NO OTHER ISSUE was so contentious that the SOUTH as a confederation of states would secede from the Union. Nothing was even close.

    So, while “States Rights” is, in fact, the correct column heading under which war was waged, the ONLY States Right that was worth waging war? Slavery. It was a column with ONE entry.

    Thus, in essence, they become equivalent. The distinction cannot be made between the States Rights argument and the Preservation of Slavery argument because there was NO OTHER States Right for which the Southern States would remotely consider seceding and waging war. Nothing.

    So, while I do hear what you’re saying and I agree about the rank and file not being preoccupied with slavery while marching in crappy conditions or with musket balls flying past them or smelling gangrene or hearing a doctor perform grizzly amputations with a rudimentary bone saw, that does NOT preclude that those soldiers did NOT agree that the South should, in fact, be allowed slaves and believe in the institution of slavery and that fighting to defend that and the way of life that accompanied that was worth fighting for.

    Of course the average foot soldier had little to no stake in reaping the rewards of the war, north or south.

    Historically, they almost never do.

    Then we disagree regarding states rights though you conceded the point. South Carolina was the first to secede and in their declaration of secession the issue of states rights was given greater weight than the issue of slavery.

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #26950
    bnw
    Blocked

    Link to Obama’s opposition to anti-slavery amendment-

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mike-lux/slavery-really_b_7462932.html

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #27098
    zn
    Moderator

    South Carolina House approves bill removing Confederate flag

    Associated Press

    http://news.yahoo.com/confederate-flags-fate-hands-south-carolina-house-083453016.html#

    COLUMBIA, S.C. (AP) — The South Carolina House approved a bill removing the Confederate flag from the Capitol grounds, a stunning reversal in a state that was the first to leave the Union in 1860 and raised the flag again at its Statehouse more than 50 years ago to protest the civil rights movement.

    The move early Thursday came after more than 13 hours of passionate and contentious debate, and just weeks after the fatal shootings of nine black church members, including a state senator, at a Bible study in Charleston.

    “South Carolina can remove the stain from our lives,” said 64-year-old Rep. Joe Neal, a black Democrat first elected in 1992. “I never thought in my lifetime I would see this.”

    The House easily approved the Senate bill by a two-thirds margin (94-20), and the bill now goes to Republican Gov. Nikki Haley’s desk. She supports the measure, which calls for the banner to come down within 24 hours of her signature.

    “It is a new day in South Carolina, a day we can all be proud of, a day that truly brings us all together as we continue to heal, as one people and one state,” Haley said in a statement.

    Haley herself reversed her position on the flag, saying the pain, grief and grace of the families of the victims in the shooting at Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal church caused her to realize that while some conservative whites saw the Confederate flag as a symbol of pride in their Southern ancestors, most of the blacks who make up a third of the state’s population see it as a dark reminder of a racist past.

    The man charged in the shooting, Dylann Roof, brought that view home, telling survivors of the attack that he killed blacks because they were raping white women and taking over the country, according to witnesses. Roof also reportedly took photographs of himself holding the Confederate flag.

    Earlier Wednesday, a group of Republicans had mounted opposition to immediately removing the flag, but at each turn, they were beaten back by a slightly larger, bipartisan group of legislators who believed there must be no delay.

    As House members deliberated well into the night, there were tears of anger and shared memories of Civil War ancestors. Black Democrats, frustrated at being asked to show grace to Civil War soldiers as the debate wore on, warned the state was embarrassing itself.

    Republican Rep. Jenny Horne reminded her colleagues she was a descendent of Confederate President Jefferson Davis, and scolded fellow members of her party for stalling the debate with dozens of amendments.

    She cried as she remembered the funeral of her slain colleague state Sen. Clementa Pinckney, the pastor of Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal church, who was gunned down as his wife and daughter locked themselves in an office.

    “For the widow of Sen. Pinckney and his two young daughters, that would be adding insult to injury and I will not be a part of it!” she screamed into a microphone.

    She said later during a break she didn’t intend to speak but got frustrated with fellow Republicans.

    Opponents of removing the flag talked about grandparents who passed down family treasures and lamented that the flag had been “hijacked” or “abducted” by racists.

    Rep. Mike Pitts, who remembered playing with a Confederate ancestor’s cavalry sword while growing up, said for him the flag is a reminder of how dirt-poor Southern farmers fought Yankees not because they hated blacks or supported slavery, but because their land was being invaded.

    Those soldiers should be respected just as soldiers who fought in the Middle East or Afghanistan, he said, recalling his own military service. Pitts then turned to a lawmaker he called a dear friend, recalling how his black colleague nearly died in Vietnam.

    “I’m willing to move that flag at some point if it causes a twinge in the hearts of my friends,” Pitts said. “But I’ll ask for something in return.”

    House Minority Leader Todd Rutherford said Democrats were united behind the Senate bill, which sends the flag to the state’s Confederate Relic Room — near the resting place for the rebel flag that flew over the Statehouse dome until it was taken down in 2000.

    Democrats didn’t want any new flag going up because it “will be the new vestige of racism,” Rutherford said.

    After a break around 8 p.m., Rutherford said Democrats were willing to let the other side make their points, but had grown tired. He said while much had been said about Confederate ancestors, “what we haven’t heard is talk about nine people slaughtered in a church.”

    Democrats then finally began debating, saying they were angry with Republicans asking for grace for people who want to remember their Southern ancestors. Neal told of his ancestors, four brothers who were bought by slave owners with the last name Neal.

    “The whole world is asking, is South Carolina really going to change, or will it hold to an ugly tradition of prejudice and discrimination and hide behind heritage as an excuse for it,” Neal said.

    Other Democrats suggested any delay would let Ku Klux Klan members planning a rally July 18 a chance to dance around the Confederate flag.

    “You don’t have to listen to me. But there are a whole lot of people outside this chamber watching,” Rep. Gilda Cobb-Hunter said.

    The debate in the South Carolina House began less than a day after the U.S. House voted to ban the display of Confederate flags at historic federal cemeteries in the Deep South.

    In Washington, the vote followed a brief debate on a measure funding the National Park Service, which maintains 14 national cemeteries, most of which contain graves of Civil War soldiers.

    The proposal by California Democrat Jared Huffman would block the Park Service from allowing private groups to decorate the graves of Southern soldiers with Confederate flags in states that commemorate Confederate Memorial Day. The cemeteries affected are the Andersonville and Vicksburg cemeteries in Georgia and Mississippi.

    Also Wednesday, state police said they were investigating an unspecified number of threats against South Carolina lawmakers debating the flag. Police Chief Mark Keel said lawmakers on both sides of the issue had been threatened, but he did not specify which ones.

    #27105
    zn
    Moderator

    South Carolina House approves bill removing Confederate flag

    Associated Press

    http://news.yahoo.com/confederate-flags-fate-hands-south-carolina-house-083453016.html#

    COLUMBIA, S.C. (AP) — The South Carolina House approved a bill removing the Confederate flag from the Capitol grounds, a stunning reversal in a state that was the first to leave the Union in 1860 and raised the flag again at its Statehouse more than 50 years ago to protest the civil rights movement.

    ———

    Alabama governor orders Confederate flags taken down

    http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/24/politics/alabama-governor-confederate-flags/

    Washington (CNN)Alabama Gov. Robert Bentley has directed that four Confederate flags be taken down from a Confederate memorial at the state capitol.

    Bentley’s order comes just two days after South Carolina Gov. Nikki Haley asked state lawmakers to remove the flag from her state’s capitol, and amid a seismic shift on the question of whether the flag should fly on government property, in the wake of last week’s church shooting in Charleston, South Carolina.

    Nikki Haley calls for removal of Confederate flag from capitol grounds

    Bentley spokeswoman Yasamie August told CNN that the flags were taken down because Bentley did not want to distract from legislative issues. August said the move will be permanent, but no other discussions are underway about the Confederate memorial itself.

    The Birmingham News reports that workers quietly removed the flags at 8:20 a.m. Wednesday and declined to answer questions. Bentley later told the paper that the flags had “the potential to become a major distraction” as state leaders work through the state budget and other issues.

    South Carolina has been the nexus of attention for the revived debate over the Confederate flag. But other southern states are reviewing their flags and the use of Confederate symbols on other official state items.

    Mississippi voters elected in 2001 to keep the Confederate “bars and stars” as part of their state flag, but state lawmakers are renewing a push to remove it from the flag. Bipartisan leaders in Tennessee are also reviewing their state flag and looking to remove a bust of Nathan Bedford Forrest, the former Confederate general and Ku Klux Klan leader, which sits outside the state Senate chamber

    —————

    Confederate flag debate sweeps South

    http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/23/politics/confederate-flags-southern-states-debate-legislators/

    Washington (CNN)State legislators across the South are now taking up the debate over the prominence of the Confederate flag in their states after conservative leaders displayed a sudden swell of support on Monday for removing the Confederate flag from the State House grounds in South Carolina.

    ————-

    Nascar Chairman Wants Confederate Flag Eliminated at Races

    http://www.wsj.com/articles/nascar-chairman-wants-confederate-flag-eliminated-at-races-1435438884

    Calling the Confederate flag an “insensitive symbol” he personally finds offensive, Nascar Chairman Brian France said the series will be aggressive in dissociating the symbol from its events.

    “We want to go as far as we can to eliminate the presence of that flag,” France said Saturday. “I personally find it an offensive symbol, so there is no daylight how we feel about it, and our sensitivity to others who feel the same way.

    “Obviously, we have our roots in the South, there are events in the South, it’s part of our history like it is for the country. But it needs to be just that, part of our history. It isn’t part of our future.[/quote]

    ————-

    Rebellion Against the Confederate Flag and the Cost of Flying It

    1 Jul, 2015

    http://www.sportsdestinations.com/destinations/south-carolina/rebellion-against-confederate-flag-and-cost-flying-9537#sthash.8bJjEBcZ.dpuf

    The call for the symbolic gesture of lowering the confederate flag from the South Carolina capitol certainly has not gone unnoticed in the Palmetto State or anywhere else in the U.S. And the ripple effect is being felt all the way through the world of sports.

    According to South Carolina football coach Steve Spurrier, who spoke out against the flag’s presence back in 2007.

    “My opinion is we don’t need the Confederate flag at our capitol,” Spurrier said, according to The Associated Press. “I don’t really know anybody that wants it there, but I guess there are a lot of South Carolinians that do want it there.”

    Spurrier had made the comments in response to a fan waving a Confederate flag during a 2006 game against Tennessee. The game was spoiled, Spurrier said, by “some clown waving that dang, damn Confederate flag behind the TV set. And it was embarrassing to me and I know embarrassing to our state.”

    The NCAA instituted a policy in 2001 barring South Carolina and Mississippi from hosting many postseason events — most prominently, the men’s and women’s NCAA basketball tournaments — because both states still flew the Confederate flag. In the 2015 women’s NCAA Tournament, however, the NCAA went against that policy and allowed South Carolina to host opening-round games, a move that drew protests from the NAACP.

    Bleacher Report noted the flag issue shows no sign of slowing down. Within the last two weeks, the Supreme Court ruled Texas could ban use of the Confederate flag on custom license plates. Lawyers for the Native Americans who filed a trademark lawsuit against the Washington Redskins cited that ruling Tuesday as they continue to work against the NFL franchise regaining the copyright, per an Associated Press report.

    Philadelphia Eagles cornerback Byron Maxwell, who grew up in Charleston, was another of the athletes to speak out on how the situation affects him.

    “I remember just about every car had the Confederate flag when I was young,” Maxwell told Robert Klemko of the MMQB.com. “It’s something they’re proud of. If those things are still flying, how far have we really come? They want to say, it’s not hate, it’s heritage. But hate is the most important part of that heritage.”

    ———–

    From retail stores to state houses, more say Confederate flag must go

    http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Society/2015/0623/From-retail-stores-to-state-houses-more-say-Confederate-flag-must-go-video

    “There’s huge competition between states like Georgia and South Carolina, which want to be hospitable to a diverse group of people and want to be attractive to businesses, which is why they’re increasingly realizing that having some kind of state endorsement of the Confederate flag is not getting them where they need to be in those two areas,” says Gibbs Knotts, a political scientist at the College of Charleston.

    “There’s huge competition between states like Georgia and South Carolina, which want to be hospitable to a diverse group of people and want to be attractive to businesses, which is why they’re increasingly realizing that having some kind of state endorsement of the Confederate flag is not getting them where they need to be in those two areas,” says Gibbs Knotts, a political scientist at the College of Charleston.

    Several South Carolina chambers of commerce urged the legislature to take the flag down, saying in a statement: “Now is the time to do away with the things that divide us and prevent our state from moving forward,” the Greenville, S.C., Chamber of Commerce, which helps recruit corporations to the region, wrote in a statement on Monday.

    Other Southern states are also weighing whether the battle flag might be more appropriate as a museum piece. Mississippi legislators this week have begun to push for a change to the state flag, which incorporates the battle flag as part of the design, and Virginia’s governor called for the removal of the Confederate battle flag from state license plates.

    In South Carolina, 50 percent of residents – a historic low – want the flag to remain on the state capitol grounds, according to a poll conducted before the shootings at Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church. Some Southerners are tired of clinging to the symbols of the past, historians say.

    “There’s a huge majority of the people I’ve met, including people who were born here [in Mississippi] and grew up here, that are tired of the whole Confederate thing, and who don’t want to have anything to do with the flag or the Confederacy,” says Ole Miss economist Jon Moen in Oxford.[/quote]

    #27186
    zn
    Moderator

    The Confederate Battle Flag: America’s Most Embattled Emblem

    by John M. Coski

    http://www.amazon.com/The-Confederate-Battle-Flag-Embattled/product-reviews/0674019830/ref=cm_cr_pr_btm_link_1?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1&sortBy=recent&reviewerType=all_reviews&formatType=all_formats&filterByStar=all_stars&pageNumber=1

    ***

    An excellent attempt at surveying the whole complex and vexed history of a flag that could potentially be a legitimate symbol of regional identity for the 21st century South, but which carries so much historic baggage that the likelihood of its successful transformation into a symbol of both black and white Southerners is slight. It is also highly unlikely that any of Coski’s excellent research will change anyone’s mind. He has some good recommendations for commonsensical approaches to the flag, though, and it would be nice if the book succeeded in encouraging flag enthusiasts to consider all the levels of meaning the flag has, instead of tuning out the more negative meanings, and encouraging flag opponents to ASK people why they display the flag, instead of just assuming the worst. It’s all about communication, folks.

    ***

    In an easily overlooked passage on page 291 (especially easily overlooked if one does not actually read the book), the author observes how some people tend to confuse “history” with “heritage”: “The discipline of history strives to present the past objectively, but acknowledges that historical interpretation is inevitably subjective and must evolve as new evidence and new perspectives emerge. Heritage is more akin to religion than history. It is a presentation of the past based not on critical evaluation of evidence but on faith and the acceptance of dogma. Heritage seeks to define and propagate _Truth_ and often does so with the selective use of evidence. Heritage affirms the historical myths essential for national, cultural, or subcultural identity.”

    What may be surprising to modern readers is that the battle flag was not a popular icon until the 1940s. It really made a political debut with the 1948 Dixiecrat Party and the run for the presidency by Strom Thurmond. It is thus legitimately associated with political resistance to segregation. The Ku Klux Klan also started featuring it in the 1940s, and the Klan’s advocacy of the flag has been an embarrassment to sensible southerners ever since.

    ***

    Coski has given specific chapters on its use in state flags, public schools, and colleges. It is only proper to understand that the flag does have a checkered past, it has been used by those with vile agendas, and that it is also viewed with affection by those Southerners who say “you can’t erase history.” Detractors and defenders will resolve this conflict only by intelligent compromise, and fortunately, some of the history Coski has given includes shared mutual understanding both that the flag has an important place in American history and political thought and that it has stood for causes that now even most Southerners understand are reprehensible.

    #27187
    — X —
    Participant

    I think my point might be that not everyone
    who likes the redskin label or stars and bars
    is “racist”. I guess thats my point.

    w
    v

    They’re not. Or, at least they weren’t.
    NOW they are, but not because they suddenly became so.
    But because they’re being told they are.

    Having been more or less raised in Florida, and being around a bunch of good ole’ Country boys, I learned that the stars & bars represented (to them) Southern Pride and their aversion to ‘Yankees’, which usually referred to the New Yorkers who migrated down every winter. But it usually meant every other state that wasn’t Confederate.

    Did they conveniently leave out the history and racial significance of the symbol? Sure. Were they intentionally doing so? Absolutely not. Never ever heard the ‘N’ word used in the same conversation about that flag, but that’s probably just the kind of “ranch people” I was exposed to as a young X. They all had horses and pick-ups, listened to Bocephus, drank a fair amount of beer, and were just generally good natured people who would go out of their way to help each other. Very polite too (when they weren’t drinking copious amounts of beer, that is).

    But yeah. You’re correct that it doesn’t mean the same thing to everyone, and they shouldn’t have to feel ashamed about what it means to them.

    You have to be odd, to be number one.
    -- Dr Seuss

    #27190
    zn
    Moderator

    Well this is a very complicated issue. I get that there are some guys who see certain relatively benign things in the c.f. but then, that also means they don;t know or don’t care what it means to others. That doesn’t mean they should feel ashamed, btw…to me none of this is about shame. It’s about conflicts we never really got over, and which are still alive. And someone could stick with the c.f. as a symbol of pride, and not care about issues of diversity and what the c.f. means to other groups. That just means to me that we’re still at the stage where for a lot of people, not caring about diversity is a norm. It’s not open, overt racial hostility (which I also saw while living in Louisiana and spending a lot of time in Texas) but at the same time, to me, it’s a source of conflicting opinions.

    You’re right that I have taken very strongly to one side in that conflict. It shows. I think the Coski stuff I posted in my last post here covers a lot of that. I learned things from reading about it (though haven’t read the book yet.) I might not have posted statements I did post if I had read that before. Different people are going to see different things in the c.f. As one of the people I quoted who talks about Coski’s book says, “it would be nice if the book succeeded in encouraging flag enthusiasts to consider all the levels of meaning the flag has, instead of tuning out the more negative meanings, and encouraging flag opponents to ASK people why they display the flag, instead of just assuming the worst. It’s all about communication, folks.”

    But all that also means that it quite rightly should not be seen as a symbol of a state government. It’s too divisive to represent a state or a national entity like Nascar. Which is why Ole Miss, South Carolina, Nascar, and Alabama all got rid of it that way (some very recently–example: “Alabama Gov. Robert Bentley has directed that four Confederate flags be taken down from a Confederate memorial at the state capitol.”

    Here’s yet another approach to it, one that is more generous than I have been on the issue:

    ============================

    http://www.addictinginfo.org/2015/07/07/people-can-learn-man-apologizes-toeveryone-hes-offended-by-flying-the-confederate-flag/

    Josh Clark grew up near Nashville, Tennessee. He’s a Southern boy who likes to “hunt, fish, camp and do pretty much anything outdoors.” He used to love the Confederate flag. Used to.

    Clark said he was never a racist. Like a lot of people, he thought the flag stood for “heritage not hate” and “pride not prejudice.” He said he was raised around people of all races and was never racist, but it wasn’t until he went to college that he realized that by wearing or hanging the Confederate flag he was hurting people. and now he’s very sorry and wants to let everyone who stands by the flag what it stands for.

    s

    Josh Clark:

    Something has been weighing pretty heavily on me the past few days. I have had a few small discussions on the issue, but haven’t gotten too far into it. I wanted to share this, not for attention, but because I thought it needed to be done.

    It’s no big secret to my friends that I love to hunt, fish, camp and do pretty much anything outdoors. I have always considered myself to be a country boy stuck in the city. One of the ways that I used to show pride for my lifestyle was wearing t-shirts with the Confederate/ Rebel flag on them. In high school, I even had a bumper sticker on my truck that read “Keep It Flying”. I had grown up seeing the flag regularly, and although I had seen it used in negative ways on occasion, I chose to accept the “Heritage not Hate” and “Pride not Prejudice” interpretation of the flag. If you had asked me back then, I would’ve told you that it was a symbol of southern pride and had nothing to do with racism.

    I was raised pretty close to downtown Nashville and grew up with kids of all races with all kinds of backgrounds. I played baseball, basketball and football on teams where sometimes whites were minorities. I am very thankful for this. As I continue to grow and learn, I realize that we tend to fear things just because we don’t understand them. Because of where and how I was raised, I never feared people of other color or background. I was able to realize that we are all the same underneath. I have had white friends, black friends, Asian friends, Middle Eastern friends, Latino friends, Christian friends, Muslim friends, Atheist friends, etc. Thankfully, I have never had a racist bone in my body.

    It wasn’t until well into my college years when I began to start thinking for myself. I no longer let the people I was raised by tell me how to view every issue and tried my best to be more open-minded. I believe that one of the most important things for us to do as humans is to try putting ourselves in others’ shoes before we make any kind of judgement.

    Although I never meant anything racist by sporting the Confederate flag, I couldn’t help but think of what some of my black friends thought about it. I really can’t think of a time that I was confronted about it. Did it not offend them? Were they too nice or afraid to confront me about it? The more I researched about the history of the flag, the worse I felt. What I had been told about its history was wrong. Thousands of southerners still fly the flag with no racist intent. They still defend the good things they’ve been told about the flag. They, like I once was, are WRONG. The flag is a symbol of a way of life that was wrong. Not that it needs to be stated, but slavery is one of the most evil and cruel things this world has ever seen. The Confederate flag represents this evil. Where is the pride in that? The Confederate flag is also a sign of division. How can you truly be a patriot of this country and fly this flag? Do we really need to fly a flag to show that we are southern, or that we like to hunt and fish, especially when it’s offensive to so many? It is not a kind thing, a good thing, or the right thing to do.

    To those against removing the flag, I do not think you are a bad person. I know what it once meant to me. I do, however, challenge you to do your research. Step outside of what your family taught you and be open-minded. Even if you believe in a different history lesson, is flying a flag worth the pain it causes others? Please try to view these issues from the other side of the argument.

    To those I may have offended in the past, who never confronted me, I apologize. I was WRONG.

    As our country continues to move forward on equality issues, I believe the only place for the Confederate flag is in our history books.

    #27191
    zn
    Moderator

    A New Southern Heritage

    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2015/06/after_obama_s_eulogy_to_clementa_pinckney_and_bree_newsome_taking_down_the.2.html

    Midway through his eulogy for Rev. Clementa Pinckney, the slain pastor of Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church in Charleston, South Carolina, President Obama spoke on the Confederate flag, which still flew at the state Capitol in Columbia. “Removing the flag from this state’s Capitol would not be an act of political correctness; it would not be an insult to the valor of Confederate soldiers. It would simply be an acknowledgment that the cause for which they fought—the cause of slavery—was wrong. The imposition of Jim Crow after the Civil War, the resistance to civil rights for all people was wrong,” he said. “It would be one step in an honest accounting of America’s history, a modest but meaningful balm for so many unhealed wounds.”

    The next morning, on Saturday, Bree Newsome—a North Carolina–based artist and activist—scaled the flagpole outside the South Carolina Statehouse to remove the flag herself, in an outsized act of civil disobedience. She was arrested, but not before she made a national impression with the latest—and most dramatic—act against the Confederate flag.

    Per Obama, the truth of the Confederate flag shift is that, after a century of this distorted remembrance, the South—and the country at large—is making an overdue correction. And although it comes out of tragedy—a racist allegedly killed nine black people with the flag as a backdrop to his hate—it also reflects the fact of the modern South, a growing, more cosmopolitan place, with vibrant cities, Latino immigration, Northern transplants, and a “reverse migration” of black Americans from around the country.

    If the past is a place we construct—one that says as much about us as it does the people we remember—then this South isn’t erasing history; it’s working to build a more truthful narrative of the Civil War for a broader, more diverse generation of Southerners. And the push against Confederate flags is just the beginning. With a vast landscape of monuments and plantations, Southerners of all colors will have to place this constructed past in its honest context before they try to build a more usable history for themselves and their descendants.

    It’s no surprise that, even as the dead had lain in wake, there was a backlash to the transformation. “It’s our own mini-French Revolution, expunging history in a frenzy of self-righteousness. Luckily, so far: 1st time tragedy, 2nd time farce,” wrote the Weekly Standard’s Bill Kristol on Twitter. “With all due deference to hatred for a Confederate flag on a pole at the statehouse, this seems like an almost childlike attempt to miss the seriousness of the situation,” wrote Mollie Hemingway at the Federalist, comparing anti-flag journalists to the Taliban militants who destroyed sixth-century Buddhist statues in 2001. And in an essay for National Review, Kevin Williamson blasted liberals for alleged hypocrisy: “It is strange and ironic that adherents of the Democratic party—which was, for about 140 years, not only the South’s but the world’s leading white-supremacist organization—should work themselves up over one flag, raised by their fellow partisans, at this late a date; but, well, welcome to the party.”

    To call the backlash to the flag opportunism, though, is to miss the decades of anti-flag activism from ordinary Southerners that coalesced in the present moment. Each critic opposes the flag and wants it to come down. What they dislike is the perceived disdain and disrespect in the sudden push against Confederate paraphernalia, as well as a touch of the totalitarian—a drive to “purge” public memory of unhappy, inconvenient history. “We’re, in a way, blowing up parts of history,” said conservative radio host Laura Ingraham on Wednesday. “[They’re] moving on from the flag to statues, memorials, perhaps Civil War re-enactments, until what else? What else becomes an untouchable or unshowable in our society?”

    Underneath this hyperbole are real concerns, shared by those Southerners who see heritage, not hatred, in the Confederate battle flag. “This is an emotional time and we all need to think through these issues with a care that recognizes the need for change but also respects the complicated history of the Civil War,” wrote former Virginia senator and Democratic presidential hopeful Jim Webb in a call for nuance and understanding.

    Webb, like Ingraham, Williamson, Hemingway, and Kristol, is right that Americans need nuance, that we shouldn’t ignore or erase history out of offense or discomfort. But they go wrong when they tie this notion of honest history to the Confederate battle flag.

    Far from an authentic symbol of Southern heritage and ancestry, the flag is a propaganda coup, the end point of 150 years of myth-making. The same goes for the countless Confederate monuments that mark the Southern landscape, from equestrian statues of Robert E. Lee and mountain carvings of Thomas “Stonewall” Jackson, to highways named for Jefferson Davis and schools named for Nathan Bedford Forrest, father of the Ku Klux Klan. Each calls back to a pre- and post-war romanticism, where the Civil War was a gentlemen’s conflict of dueling ideals—autonomy versus central authority, agrarian democracy versus industrial capitalism—between brilliant, honorable Southerners and their determined, better-equipped opponents in the North.

    The truth of the Confederate flag shift is that, after a century of this distorted remembrance, the South—and the country at large—is making an overdue correction.

    But this story is a lie. Far from the peaceful society of a young Scarlett O’Hara, the antebellum South was a brutal archipelago of slave labor camps governed by an aristocracy of planters and slave traders. Those men fought the Civil War to preserve slavery and expand it in a vast empire of bondage. “Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery—the greatest material interest of the world,” wrote the Mississippi secessionists. “The people of the slave holding States are bound together by the same necessity and determination to preserve African slavery,” echoed their counterparts in Louisiana.

    Far from glorious, this war for slavery was savage. At the Battle of Fort Pillow in Tennessee, Confederate troops under Maj. Gen. Nathan Bedford Forrest massacred a surrendering Union force of free-born blacks and former slaves. Likewise, in Centralia, Missouri, Confederate guerrillas executed almost two-dozen Union soldiers after looting a passenger train. And during the Gettysburg campaign, the Army of Northern Virginia—led by Gen. Robert E. Lee—commenced a kidnapping campaign, raiding Pennsylvania towns, capturing free blacks, and sending them South into slavery.

    After the war, however, former Confederate leaders would work to obscure the causes and the conduct of the war, building a new narrative of the conflict. Slavery, wrote Jefferson Davis in his defense of the Southern cause, “was in no wise the cause of the conflict, but only an incident.” The South, instead, was fighting against the “unlimited, despotic power” of the federal government and its “tremendous and sweeping usurpation” of states’ rights. “It is a postulate, with many writers of this day, that the late War was the result of two opposing ideas, or principles, upon the subject of African Slavery. … Those who assume this postulate, and so theorize upon it, are but superficial observers,” wrote former Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephens, just three years after the war had ended and seven years after he gave his Cornerstone Speech defending slavery as the foundation of Southern life. “[T]he conflict,” he continued, “arose from different and opposing ideas as to the nature of what is known as the General Government.”

    Concurrent with this whitewash of the causes of the war was a push to enshrine Confederate military leadership as the standard of Southern bravery and valor. Throughout the South, ex-Confederates built and erected monuments to Lee, to Forrest, and to Jackson. It’s here that Lee attains his still-high stature as a gentleman and military genius, despite his slave-holding, his defense of slavery, and a mixed generalship that failed to achieve Confederate war aims, even when odds were with him.

    But it’s in the wake of Reconstruction and the white Southern victory over black and Northern political power, notes historian David Blight in Race and Reunion: The Civil War in American Memory, that these monuments became part of a narrative of restoration and victory, and an antecedent to today’s nostalgia:

    At the October 1878 unveiling of the Confederate monument in the town square of Augusta, Georgia, one of that state’s most popular Lost Cause voices, Charles Colcock Jones Jr., argued that the South had fought for “liberty” and “freedom” and had lost only because it had been “overborne by superior numbers and weightier munitions.” Then he quickly shifted to a victory narrative. The ultimate verdict of the war awaited the history of their own time. “Nothing has been absolutely determined except the question of comparative strength,” said Jones. “The issue furnished only a physical solution of the moral, social, and political propositions.” To Jones, the South could still win the war politically. The “political privileges” and “vested rights” of Southerners, he declared, “are, in a moral point of view, unaffected by the result of the contest.”

    This “Lost Cause,” Blight continues, “became an integral part of national reconciliation by dint of sheer sentimentalism, by political argument, and by recurrent celebrations and rituals.” By the 1890s, it formed the basis for national memory of the war, “a set of conservative traditions by which the entire country could gird itself against racial, political, and industrial disorder.” Expressed in academia by the work of pro-Southern historians like William Dunning and popularized by The Clansman, Gone With the Wind, and other successful novels, the Lost Cause became the foundation for Southern memory of the war years and their aftermath.

    When white Southerners returned the battle flag to view in the 1950s and 1960s—in defense of Jim Crow and in defiance of the federal government—they did so against this backdrop of Confederate memory. “Today I have stood, where once Jefferson Davis stood, and took an oath to my people,” said Alabama Gov. George Wallace in his infamous 1963 inaugural address. “It is very appropriate then that from this cradle of the Confederacy, this very heart of the great Anglo-Saxon Southland, that today we sound the drum for freedom as have our generations of forebears before us done, time and time again through history. Let us rise to the call of freedom-loving blood that is in us and send our answer to the tyranny that clanks its chains upon the South.”

    The simple fact is the flag doesn’t have a different meaning. Its heritage is hate, and we can’t divorce it from Stephens or Wallace or any of the racists and terrorists it’s inspired. But we can place it in its proper context, as Southerners construct a more honest, and more inclusive, heritage. Luckily, this isn’t a new task. In places like Germany and the former Soviet bloc, artists, historians, and ordinary people have worked to place their recent past in context, as both a memorial to victims and as a reminder of local contributions to the uglier parts of human history. In addition to major installations like the Memorial to the Murdered Jews of Europe, there are also smaller projects; since 1997, one German artist has installed small cobblestone memorials in front of the last known residences of the Holocaust dead and other victims of Nazism.

    By definition, these projects are contentious. In Eastern and Central Europe, the push to commemorate and memorialize the victims of Soviet communism has brought disputes around the scope and content of these efforts. To emphasize national resistance—the Hungarian revolution of 1956 for example—is also to look away from the people who collaborated or just tried to live their lives. And there’s also the question of what to do with communist-era monuments to the heroes of communist governments. Should those stand? Or should they be removed and brushed into the ash heap of history?

    There’s no way to escape these questions or the broad challenge and heartache of crafting a new narrative—a new way for people to see and understand their history. At the same time, we don’t have to knock down Monument Avenue in Richmond or demolish Stone Mountain in Georgia to construct a more honest history of the South. The Whitney Plantation in Louisiana was transformed into a museum of slavery to illustrate the reality of the institution. Other plantations could follow suit, de-emphasizing the lives of the planters and emphasizing those of black Americans. After the Charleston shootings, a statue of John C. Calhoun—famous defender of slavery in the antebellum South—was marked with “racist” in spray paint. I understand the sentiment, but we don’t need vandalism to add context to Calhoun and emphasize his disgraced place in the hall of American politicians.

    Beyond flags and statutes, we can work to resurrect and uncover a broader history of the South, to include moments—and people—we’ve forgotten. For instance, with the Equal Justice Initiative, Bryan Stevenson is illuminating our history of lynching, part of a larger project of researching—and marking—our sites of racial injustice.

    There’s room for pride in Southern history too. Instead of Robert E. Lee, future Southerners might esteem Cassius Marcellus Clay, a onetime Kentucky slaveholder who embraced the abolitionist cause and became a fierce advocate against slavery, risking his fortune and his reputation for the sake of human freedom. Or they might learn more about Angelina and Sarah Grimke, two South Carolina sisters born into wealth and influence who turned their backs on their class to preach abolition. There’s men like Robert Smalls, the former slave who commandeered a Confederate vessel, rescued his family, escaped to freedom, and served as one of the first black Americans in the House of Representatives; George Henry Thomas, a Virginia-born general who, unlike Lee, fought for the Union; and James Longstreet, a Confederate general who, after the war, embraced Reconstruction and even led a black militia against an armed mob of white vigilantes.

    Toward the end of his eulogy, President Obama quoted Clementa Pinckney on the South and its relationship to history:

    Rev. Pinckney once said, “Across the South we have a deep appreciation of history. We haven’t always had a deep appreciation of each other’s history.” What is true in the South is true for America. Clem understood that justice grows out of recognition of ourselves in each other. That my liberty depends on you being free too. That history can’t be a sword to justify injustice, or a shield against progress, but must be a manual for how to avoid repeating the mistakes of the past. How to break the cycle. A roadway towards a better world.”

    It will take hard work, struggle, and even acrimony to build a more inclusive heritage for the South. But as we’ve seen, and continue to see, it’s necessary and possible.

    #27196
    InvaderRam
    Moderator

    they should just pick another flag and use it to represent southern pride. they could have a contest and pick a winner. and turn it into a reality show.

    an aside note. i wonder what flag the robots will raise when they rule earth. and i wonder what flag the humans will raise in opposition…

    seriously though. this is a very difficult subject matter with no real easy answers. good discussion.

    #27197
    — X —
    Participant

    Well this is a very complicated issue. I get that there are some guys who see certain relatively benign things in the c.f. but then, that also means they don;t know or don’t care what it means to others. That doesn’t mean they should feel ashamed, btw…to me none of this is about shame. It’s about conflicts we never really got over, and which are still alive. And someone could stick with the c.f. as a symbol of pride, and not care about issues of diversity and what the c.f. means to other groups. That just means to me that we’re still at the stage where for a lot of people, not caring about diversity is a norm. It’s not open, overt racial hostility (which I also saw while living in Louisiana and spending a lot of time in Texas) but at the same time, to me, it’s a source of conflicting opinions.

    You’re right that I have taken very strongly to one side in that conflict. It shows. I think the Coski stuff I posted in my last post here covers a lot of that. I learned things from reading about it (though haven’t read the book yet.) I might not have posted statements I did post if I had read that before. Different people are going to see different things in the c.f. As one of the people I quoted who talks about Coski’s book says, “it would be nice if the book succeeded in encouraging flag enthusiasts to consider all the levels of meaning the flag has, instead of tuning out the more negative meanings, and encouraging flag opponents to ASK people why they display the flag, instead of just assuming the worst. It’s all about communication, folks.”

    But all that also means that it quite rightly should not be seen as a symbol of a state government. It’s too divisive to represent a state or a national entity like Nascar. Which is why Ole Miss, South Carolina, Nascar, and Alabama all got rid of it that way (some very recently–example: “Alabama Gov. Robert Bentley has directed that four Confederate flags be taken down from a Confederate memorial at the state capitol.”

    I work in Charleston/Hilton Head now, and I drive a lot so I listen to a lot of talk radio. Bentley didn’t have an epiphany about the flag that compelled him to fight for racial harmony. It was straight up pandering. That, and he simply didn’t want to deal with it because it was cutting into his own personal agendas. Without pressure, he makes no such decision.

    “This had the potential to become a major distraction as we go forward. I have taxes to raise, we have work to do. And it was my decision that the flag needed to come down.”

    Again, was it the RIGHT thing to do on the whole? Sure. Not only that, it was inevitable. So I don’t think that anybody really believes that keeping it on the State grounds is something worth fighting over. That battle was waged and won quickly. Now all that’s left is people’s personal freedoms, and this is where everyone should tread lightly. I don’t believe that we’ll ever achieve a Utopia wherein a particular principle or ideal is universally adopted. If certain people *want* to continue to have the flag represent Southern Pride (or whatever non-hurtful thing they believe), they should be permitted to without being chastised about how insensitive or ignorant they are. So yeah, communication is key to all of this going forward. No one person or group should ever be allowed to dictate what another person or group should adopt as their own personal principles or beliefs. Talk about it and see if an understand can be had. And if an understand can’t be reached, then leave it alone. You tried.

    You have to be odd, to be number one.
    -- Dr Seuss

    #27199
    zn
    Moderator

    If certain people *want* to continue to have the flag represent Southern Pride (or whatever non-hurtful thing they believe), they should be permitted to without being chastised about how insensitive or ignorant they are. So yeah, communication is key to all of this going forward. No one person or group should ever be allowed to dictate what another person or group should adopt as their own personal principles or beliefs. Talk about it and see if an understand can be had. And if an understand can’t be reached, then leave it alone. You tried.

    This is where conflict is inevitable, though, because the thing is in itself divisive. People who believe in benign heritage of course have a right, but so do the people for whom the flag is a reminder of slavery and the anti-desegregation stuff from the 40s and 50s. We don’t get anywhere if one side or the other is silenced, right? So I guess on this, I just say, expect conflict.

    Like I said elsewhere, my wife is from Texas. She’s the daughter of a good ole boy fire fighter (whom I knew…Warren. Fisherman, hunter, and also band leader on occasion, for classic jazz bands. I actually inherited Warren’s pick-up truck when he died.) My wife won’t even discuss any of this, it just automatically makes her angry. She, like virtually everyone, is not advocating banning the thing, but the states flying it? Makes her angry. I can’t get into nuanced discussions with her–I get her heavy Texas accent going “just take the damm thing down!” I know a lot of southerners like that…many of the things I post come from facebook, where I maintain contact with friends from all over, including Louisiana, Texas, and North Carolina.

    So it really is a complex thing.

    So complex that the way I see it, asking people who are offended by the history of the c.f. not to be offended is really no different from asking people who see it habitually as a benign pride thing to change. It really is a multi-edged sword.

    It really is as deep as the real divisions between us, some of which granted are not based in malice and bad intentions.

    So I just agree with Rev. Pinckney: “Across the South we have a deep appreciation of history. We haven’t always had a deep appreciation of each other’s history.”

    Though I am not a southerner, even if I am no stranger to parts of the south, so I will just amend that to “in america.”

    It’s a tricky business discussing all this, and, many do it better than I do. I’ve done okay sometimes. Not often enough.

    #27200
    bnw
    Blocked

    That flag is selling faster now than ever before. But that is part of the overall plan it seems. The race baiting has been a concerted effort for years and still hasn’t gained traction. Now the flag is the latest public casualty but gains more support than ever. Law of Unintended Consequences.

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #27201
    zn
    Moderator

    The race baiting has been a concerted effort for years and still hasn’t gained traction

    Speaking as just another board citizen I think the term “race baiting” is inflammatory. (Speaking as a mod for a sec, it also doesn’t violate any rules.) My experience just tells me race just IS a complex and conflicted issue in the USA, and that’s whether we each personally attempt to address it or to avoid it. There’s no message there, just fwiw. To me the phrase “race baiting” implies there are no real racial issues. But that does not accord with the america I experience, where those issues are real and ever present, and not helped any by silencing them. IMO.

    As for a specific point, none of this is about private use or ownership, so the only intended consequences is lowering the flag from public buildings. Private sales are irrelevant to that. So far, so good, in terms of the public consequences.

    #27202
    zn
    Moderator

    Why do people believe myths about the Confederacy? Because our textbooks and monuments are wrong.

    False history makes us all dumber.

    By James W. Loewen

    James W. Loewen, Emeritus Professor of Sociology at the University of Vermont, is the author of “Lies My Teacher Told Me” and “The Confederate and Neo-Confederate Reader.”

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/07/01/why-do-people-believe-myths-about-the-confederacy-because-our-textbooks-and-monuments-are-wrong/

    The Confederate flag waves over the South Carolina statehouse. (Joe Raedle/Getty Images)

    History is the polemics of the victor, William F. Buckley once said. Not so in the United States, at least not regarding the Civil War. As soon as the Confederates laid down their arms, some picked up their pens and began to distort what they had done and why. The resulting mythology took hold of the nation a generation later and persists — which is why a presidential candidate can suggest, as Michele Bachmann did in 2011, that slavery was somehow pro-family and why the public, per the Pew Research Center, believes that the war was fought mainly over states’ rights.

    The Confederates won with the pen (and the noose) what they could not win on the battlefield: the cause of white supremacy and the dominant understanding of what the war was all about. We are still digging ourselves out from under the misinformation they spread, which has manifested in our public monuments and our history books.

    Take Kentucky, where the legislature voted not to secede. Early in the war, Confederate Gen. Albert Sidney Johnston ventured through the western part of the state and found “no enthusiasm, as we imagined and hoped, but hostility.” Eventually, 90,000 Kentuckians would fight for the United States, while 35,000 fought for the Confederate States. Nevertheless, according to historian Thomas Clark, the state now has 72 Confederate monuments and only two Union ones.

    Neo-Confederates also won parts of Maryland. In 1913, the United Daughters of the Confederacy (UDC) put a soldier on a pedestal at the Rockville courthouse. Maryland, which did not secede, sent 24,000 men to the Confederate armed forces, but it also sent 63,000 to the U.S. Army and Navy. Still, the UDC’s monument tells visitors to take the other side: “To our heroes of Montgomery Co. Maryland: That we through life may not forget to love the thin gray line.”

    In fact, the thin gray line came through Montgomery and adjoining Frederick counties at least three times, en route to Antietam, Gettysburg and Washington. Robert E. Lee’s army expected to find recruits and help with food, clothing and information. It didn’t. Instead, Maryland residents greeted Union soldiers as liberators when they came through on the way to Antietam. Recognizing the residents of Frederick as hostile, Confederate cavalry leader Jubal Early ransomed $200,000 from them lest he burn their town, a sum equal to about $3 million today. But Frederick now boasts a Confederate memorial, and the manager of the town’s cemetery — filled with Union and Confederate dead — told me, “Very little is done on the Union side” around Memorial Day. “It’s mostly Confederate.”

    The politics behind the Confederate flag controversy in South Carolina(1:37)
    South Carolina Gov. Nikki Haley (R) announced she supports removing the Confederate flag from the state capitol grounds. Here’s what you need to know about the history of the flag in the state and what needs to happen to have it removed. (Jorge Ribas/The Washington Post)

    Neo-Confederates didn’t just win the battle of public monuments. They managed to rename the war, calling it the War Between the States, a locution born after the conflict that was among the primary ways to refer to the war in the middle of the 20th century, after which it began to fade. Even “Jeopardy!” has used this language.

    Perhaps most perniciously, neo-Confederates now claim that the South seceded over states’ rights. Yet when each state left the Union, its leaders made clear that they were seceding because they were for slavery and against states’ rights. In its “Declaration of the Causes Which Impel the State of Texas to Secede From the Federal Union,” for example, the secession convention of Texas listed the states that had offended the delegates: “Maine, Vermont, New Hampshire, Connecticut, Rhode Island, Massachusetts, New York, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Wisconsin, Michigan and Iowa.” Governments there had exercised states’ rights by passing laws that interfered with the federal government’s attempts to enforce the Fugitive Slave Act. Some no longer let slave owners “transit” across their territory with slaves. “States’ rights” were what Texas was seceding against. Texas also made clear what it was seceding for — white supremacy:

    We hold as undeniable truths that the governments of the various States, and of the confederacy itself, were established exclusively by the white race, for themselves and their posterity; that the African race had no agency in their establishment; that they were rightfully held and regarded as an inferior and dependent race, and in that condition only could their existence in this country be rendered beneficial or tolerable.

    Despite such statements, neo-Confederates erected monuments that flatly lied about the Confederate cause. For example, South Carolina’s monument at Gettysburg, dedicated in 1963, claims to explain why the state seceded: “Abiding faith in the sacredness of states rights provided their creed here.” This tells us nothing about 1863, when abiding opposition to states’ rights provided the Palmetto State’s creed. In 1963, however, its leaders did support states’ rights; politicians tried desperately that decade to keep the federal government from enforcing school desegregation and civil rights.

    So thoroughly did this mythology take hold that our textbooks still stand history on its head and say secession was for, rather than against, states’ rights. Publishers mystify secession because they don’t want to offend Southern school districts and thereby lose sales. Consider this passage from “The American Journey,” probably the largest textbook ever foisted on middle school students and perhaps the best-selling U.S. history textbook:

    The South Secedes

    Lincoln and the Republicans had promised not to disturb slavery where it already existed. Nevertheless, many people in the South mistrusted the party, fearing that the Republican government would not protect Southern rights and liberties. On December 20, 1860, the South’s long-standing threat to leave the Union became a reality when South Carolina held a special convention and voted to secede.

    The section reads as if slavery was not the reason for secession. Instead, the rationale is completely vague: White Southerners feared for their “rights and liberties.” On the next page, the authors are more precise: White Southerners claimed that since “the national government” had been derelict ” — by refusing to enforce the Fugitive Slave Act and by denying the Southern states equal rights in the territories — the states were justified in leaving the Union.”

    “Journey” offers no evidence to support this claim. It cannot. No Southern state made any such charge against the federal government in any secession document I have ever seen. Abraham Lincoln’s predecessors, James Buchanan and Franklin Pierce, were part of the pro-Southern wing of the Democratic Party. For 10 years, the federal government had vigorously enforced the Fugitive Slave Act. Buchanan supported pro-slavery forces in Kansas even after his own minion, territorial governor and former Mississippi slave owner Robert Walker, ruled that they had won an election only by fraud. The seven states that seceded before Lincoln took office had no quarrel with “the national government.”

    Teaching or implying that the Confederate states seceded for states’ rights is not accurate history. It is white, Confederate-apologist history. “Journey,” like other U.S. textbooks, needs to be de-Confederatized. So does the history test we give to immigrants who want to become U.S. citizens. Item No. 74 asks them to “name one problem that led to the Civil War.” It then gives three acceptable answers: slavery, economic reasons and states’ rights. (No other question on this 100-item test has more than one right answer.) If by “economic reasons” it means issues with tariffs and taxes, which most people infer, then two of its three “correct answers” are wrong.

    The legacy of this thinking pervades Washington, too. The dean of the Washington National Cathedral has noted that some of its stained-glass windows memorialize Stonewall Jackson and Robert E. Lee. There’s a statue of Albert Pike, Confederate general and reputed leader of the Arkansas Ku Klux Klan, in Judiciary Square.

    The Army runs Fort A.P. Hill, named for a Confederate general whose men killed African American soldiers after they surrendered; Fort Bragg, named for a general who was not only Confederate but also incompetent; and Fort Benning, named for a general who, after he helped get his home state of Georgia to secede, made the following argument to the Virginia legislature:

    What was the reason that induced Georgia to take the step of secession? This reason may be summed up in one single proposition. It was a conviction . . . that a separation from the North was the only thing that could prevent the abolition of her slavery. . . . If things are allowed to go on as they are, it is certain that slavery is to be abolished. . . . By the time the North shall have attained the power, the black race will be in a large majority, and then we will have black governors, black legislatures, black juries, black everything. . . . The consequence will be that our men will be all exterminated or expelled to wander as vagabonds over a hostile Earth, and as for our women, their fate will be too horrible to contemplate even in fancy.

    With our monuments lying about secession, our textbooks obfuscating what the Confederacy was about and our Army honoring Southern generals, no wonder so many Americans supported the Confederacy until recently. We can see the impact of Confederate symbols and thinking on Dylann Roof, accused of killing nine in a Charleston, S.C., church, but other examples abound. In his mugshot, Timothy McVeigh, who bombed the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City in 1995, wore a neo-Confederate T-shirt showing Abraham Lincoln and the words “Sic semper tyrannis.” When white students in Appleton, Wis. — a recovering “sundown town” that for decades had been all white on purpose — had issues with Mexican American students in 1999, they responded by wearing and waving Confederate flags, which they already had at home, at the ready.

    Across the country, removing slavery from its central role in prompting the Civil War marginalizes African Americans and makes us all stupid. De-Confederatizing the United States won’t end white supremacy, but it will be a momentous step in that direction.

    #27203
    bnw
    Blocked

    So he was “shaking and almost vomiting”? What a drama king. He should have been arrested for misusing 911.

    ‘Offended’ flea market shopper calls 911 over Confederate merchandise

    JULY 12, 2015
    BY OLAF EKBERG

    http://www.theamericanmirror.com/offended-flea-market-shopper-calls-911-over-confederate-merchandise/

    A shopper perusing the merchandise at the Redwood Country Flea Market was so offended by a vendor selling Confederate and Nazi historical memorabilia, the person actually called 911.

    Wallingford, Connecticut police were dispatched to the flea market to investigate.

    flag
    Confederate memorabilia. (Example)
    The police chief William Wright tells News 8 “the reason no one was arrested was because the items were being sold on private property” — not to mention no laws were broken.

    “There was a table set up with this material,” Wright says, according to Journal-Record. “It’s not criminally illegal, but obviously it offended this person. It causes some people a sense of being uncomfortable. Certainly the owner could preclude this merchandise.”

    The town resident who called 911 said there were helmets with swastikas, images of Hitler and other historical Nazi items.

    “I was shaking and almost vomiting,” he tells the paper. “I had to run. My grandmother had numbers,” referring to the digits the Nazis would tattoo on prisoners.

    The caller complained that the Confederate items were “not authentic” and were replicas of flags and weapons.

    He says the seller told him “he was selling so much he can’t keep it in stock.”

    Jason Teal, president of the Meriden-Wallingford NAACP, was contacted to see what he thought.

    “It’s difficult because it’s on private property and it’s considered free speech,” Teal says.

    According to the paper, the complainant also called Mayor William W. Dickinson Jr., who promptly called Chief Wright.

    “I had to check with the chief over what is actionable and what isn’t,” according to the mayor. “Unless something violates state or federal law, there’s no jurisdiction for government to do anything. We had to ask, is it something controlled by law?”

    And the assistant regional director of the Anti-Defamation League in Connecticut sees a difference between authentic memorabilia and “cheap replicas” “used as symbols of hate.”

    “It’s unfortunate that under the law people have the right to sell these things; but it doesn’t mean they should sell these things,” Joshua Sayles says.

    “It’s not a crime but I would call it hate. People look at the situation in Charleston and say it’s down in the South. But this stuff is here in Connecticut.”

    • This reply was modified 9 years, 2 months ago by bnw.

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #27205
    — X —
    Participant

    If certain people *want* to continue to have the flag represent Southern Pride (or whatever non-hurtful thing they believe), they should be permitted to without being chastised about how insensitive or ignorant they are. So yeah, communication is key to all of this going forward. No one person or group should ever be allowed to dictate what another person or group should adopt as their own personal principles or beliefs. Talk about it and see if an understand can be had. And if an understand can’t be reached, then leave it alone. You tried.

    This is where conflict is inevitable, though, because the thing is in itself divisive. People who believe in benign heritage of course have a right, but so do the people for whom the flag is a reminder of slavery and the anti-desegregation stuff from the 40s and 50s. We don’t get anywhere if one side or the other is silenced, right? So I guess on this, I just say, expect conflict.

    Like I said elsewhere, my wife is from Texas. She’s the daughter of a good ole boy fire fighter (whom I knew…Warren. Fisherman, hunter, and also band leader on occasion, for classic jazz bands. I actually inherited Warren’s pick-up truck when he died.) My wife won’t even discuss any of this, it just automatically makes her angry. She, like virtually everyone, is not advocating banning the thing, but the states flying it? Makes her angry. I can’t get into nuanced discussions with her–I get her heavy Texas accent going “just take the damm thing down!” I know a lot of southerners like that…many of the things I post come from facebook, where I maintain contact with friends from all over, including Louisiana, Texas, and North Carolina.

    So it really is a complex thing.

    So complex that the way I see it, asking people who are offended by the history of the c.f. not to be offended is really no different from asking people who see it habitually as a benign pride thing to change. It really is a multi-edged sword.

    It really is as deep as the real divisions between us, some of which granted are not based in malice and bad intentions.

    So I just agree with Rev. Pinckney: “Across the South we have a deep appreciation of history. We haven’t always had a deep appreciation of each other’s history.”

    Though I am not a southerner, even if I am no stranger to parts of the south, so I will just amend that to “in america.”

    It’s a tricky business discussing all this, and, many do it better than I do. I’ve done okay sometimes. Not often enough.

    Well I think for the most part we see eye-to-eye on this. You basically said what I said, in that both “sides” to the freedom of expression and/or belief quandary surrounding the flag should just live their lives believing and expressing what they want without being told they’re wrong. I know where you are on this, because I’ve read everything you posted about it. I think you’d like for everyone who has any affinity for the flag to gain a deep understanding of how hurtful it is to *some* people and let their sensitivity toward that be their guiding principle.

    Well, in a perfect world I guess.

    Meanwhile those people who displayed the flag as a symbol of their heritage, pride, and love of the South, are suddenly not just proud people. They’re something far, far worse. Something ugly. And I think it’s wrong to have their little piece of the universe invaded by political zealots who are taking it upon themselves to be the voice of the New Moral Order. Just as I think it’s wrong for people who are opposed to everything for which the flag stands, to be told they should just get over it.

    Live and let live.

    You have to be odd, to be number one.
    -- Dr Seuss

    #27219
    zn
    Moderator

    Well I think for the most part we see eye-to-eye on this. You basically said what I said, in that both “sides” to the freedom of expression and/or belief quandary surrounding the flag should just live their lives believing and expressing what they want without being told they’re wrong. I know where you are on this, because I’ve read everything you posted about it. I think you’d like for everyone who has any affinity for the flag to gain a deep understanding of how hurtful it is to *some* people and let their sensitivity toward that be their guiding principle.

    Well, in a perfect world I guess.

    Meanwhile those people who displayed the flag as a symbol of their heritage, pride, and love of the South, are suddenly not just proud people. They’re something far, far worse. Something ugly. And I think it’s wrong to have their little piece of the universe invaded by political zealots who are taking it upon themselves to be the voice of the New Moral Order. Just as I think it’s wrong for people who are opposed to everything for which the flag stands, to be told they should just get over it.

    Live and let live.

    Well I think that’s a good response on a massively fraught and complicated issue.

    We end up with a kind of agreement between “live and let live” and “I guess on this, I just say, expect conflict.”

    But I do want to expand on how I feel about all this. This is all just “IMO” and “where I am coming from” kinda stuff. But, what I sense from reading this exchange is that you are I are both protective of different social groups. We’re both protective, in the sense that we speak up, and want to be heard, and don’t like what we think is unjust. They’re just different groups, with different attitudes and interests. (And probably not completely different groups either, but as it pertains to this discussion, put in terms of the extremes, it’s the difference between “screw the bigots, we’re just into pride” world and the “no whitewashing of that history is acceptable” world.)

    When I meet individuals, though, I judge them as individuals. I knew people all over–in Indiana, Lousiana, and even Maine—who identified with the c.f. and what, to them, it stood for in positive ways. I don’t confront them, I don’t judge, I don’t come across as this activist. In social situations I am always kind of interested and friendly. I couldn’t get along with my neighbors if that weren’t the case. We get along fine talking about gardens, dogs, the weather, our kids, their successes and worries in the world. You would be amazed how inoffensive I am in real life. sBut in debate forums—like the net—I stand up for a few things. One is history. For example, I just posted something by a top, very cool historian who makes a good case debunking the idea that the civil war was about states rights, since one of the complaints from the leaders of the confederacy was that the federal government would not clamp down on states that ignored the fugitive slave act. They openly claimed that was a violation of federal law and that states did not have the right to do that.

    Etc. etc. Lots of history.

    I also have a hard time with people who make a concerted effort to deny that racial issues still exist. I mean we just have numbers on that—percentages of blacks searched v. percentages of whites searched and also the percentages of those who had illegal possessions of any kind. (As it happens, a higher percentage of whites pulled over are in possession of something illegal, but because a higher percentage of blacks are pulled over, the arrest numbers are higher for blacks.) Etc, etc.

    So I don’t harass a neighbor who has confederate flag or threaten him or even mention it. But when debate comes up in debate forums, I have the issues that just get to me, and I try to speak for them.

    But I also burn out on it too. (Activists of all kinds talk about this. When you’re heavy lifting against so much, you burn out.)

    I also don’t expect a utopia or a perfect world. I just expect continual progress toward good ideals, and on many fronts, I have seen that happen. The difference between now and when I was 20 is enormous, in terms of just key social issues. (BTW I went to high school in Indiana, which anyone who is from there will tell you, was one of the most openly racist places in the country. I just came back from there, and to my utter surprise, it was just very different from when I was young. I was damm near doing cartoon eyeball pop-outs over it. As in, hunh? when did this happen?)

    Sometimes discussion comes from anger, sometimes it comes from the unexpectedly best in people.

    So I promise I don’t walk around in contemptuous disdain for people who I don’t agree with. But at the same time, when the issue comes up in appropriate forums (as it did for example with Ferguson), I just virtually always pitch in. Sometimes as a warrior, sometimes as a diplomat, sometimes as just an emotional guy with different ideas on the issue and a fast typing hand. Mostly the result is, I end up admiring the people who are better at talking about it than I am.

    #27225
    bnw
    Blocked

    zn quote

    “For example, I just posted something by a top, very cool historian who makes a good case debunking the idea that the civil war was about states rights, since one of the complaints from the leaders of the confederacy was that the federal government would not clamp down on states that ignored the fugitive slave act. They openly claimed that was a violation of federal law and that states did not have the right to do that.”

    That is states rights. States rights per the US constitution ca. 1861. Slaves were property. The underground railroad dealt in stolen property. When the northern states refused to return the stolen property the compact was broken. Northern states aiding and abetting anti-slavery terrorists was a de-facto war against the south. Property rights then as now are guaranteed by the US constitution. If you see your stolen yankee car in my southern driveway and demand it be returned, and I say no, and my local law enforcement refuses to act other than to arrest anyone attempting to steal a car from my driveway, and your yankee financial judgement is not honored by my local and state authorities, what recourse do you have? It was always about states rights.

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #27236
    zn
    Moderator

    zn quote

    “For example, I just posted something by a top, very cool historian who makes a good case debunking the idea that the civil war was about states rights, since one of the complaints from the leaders of the confederacy was that the federal government would not clamp down on states that ignored the fugitive slave act. They openly claimed that was a violation of federal law and that states did not have the right to do that.”

    That is states rights. States rights per the US constitution ca. 1861. Slaves were property. The underground railroad dealt in stolen property. When the northern states refused to return the stolen property the compact was broken. Northern states aiding and abetting anti-slavery terrorists was a de-facto war against the south. Property rights then as now are guaranteed by the US constitution. If you see your stolen yankee car in my southern driveway and demand it be returned, and I say no, and my local law enforcement refuses to act other than to arrest anyone attempting to steal a car from my driveway, and your yankee financial judgement is not honored by my local and state authorities, what recourse do you have? It was always about states rights.

    Well good for the northern states. If that was one of the spurs of the civil war then it not only did good for individual escaped slaves, it contributed to the destruction of slavery, since the south was never going to win a civil war.

    And of course that led to a world where we don’t equate people with property, because we rectified a horrible decision by the original writers of the constitution.

    What recourse did they have? To give up slavery voluntarily. Anything short of that is indefensible, which is another reason why it’s such a great thing they lost.

    .

    #27241
    bnw
    Blocked

    zn quote

    “For example, I just posted something by a top, very cool historian who makes a good case debunking the idea that the civil war was about states rights, since one of the complaints from the leaders of the confederacy was that the federal government would not clamp down on states that ignored the fugitive slave act. They openly claimed that was a violation of federal law and that states did not have the right to do that.”

    That is states rights. States rights per the US constitution ca. 1861. Slaves were property. The underground railroad dealt in stolen property. When the northern states refused to return the stolen property the compact was broken. Northern states aiding and abetting anti-slavery terrorists was a de-facto war against the south. Property rights then as now are guaranteed by the US constitution. If you see your stolen yankee car in my southern driveway and demand it be returned, and I say no, and my local law enforcement refuses to act other than to arrest anyone attempting to steal a car from my driveway, and your yankee financial judgement is not honored by my local and state authorities, what recourse do you have? It was always about states rights.

    Well good for the northern states. If that was one of the spurs of the civil war then it not only did good for individual escaped slaves, it contributed to the destruction of slavery, since the south was never going to win a civil war.

    And of course that led to a world where we don’t equate people with property, because we rectified a horrible decision by the original writers of the constitution.

    What recourse did they have? To give up slavery voluntarily. Anything short of that is indefensible, which is another reason why it’s such a great thing they lost.

    .

    Slavery was already on its way out. Not to be crass but it was already too expensive and increasingly became so with the great technological innovations leading into the 20th century.

    What an odd understanding of history to claim the war “led to a world where we don’t equate people with property”. The western world was doing fine abolishing slavery without bloodshed.

    Slavery abolished:

    1723 Russia
    1761 Portugal
    1772 Britain
    1793 Upper Canada
    1794 France (until 1802)
    1799 Scotland
    1803 Denmark and Norway
    1804 Haiti
    1807 Duchy of Warsaw
    1814 Netherlands
    1816 Estonia
    1816 Venezuela
    1821 Gran Colombia
    1822 Greece
    1823 Chile
    1824 Federal Republic of Central America
    1830 Uruguay
    1831 Bolivia
    1834 Great Britain
    1847 Sweden
    1848 France
    1851 Colombia
    1853 Argentina
    1854 Peru

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

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