Juan Cole: articles on Syria

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  • #67418
    zn
    Moderator

    Al-Sadr: Russia, America and al-Assad should all get out of Syria!

    Juan Cole

    https://www.juancole.com/2017/04/russia-america-should.html

    Iraqi Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr on Saturday issued a broadside demanding that Russia and the United States withdraw from Syria and that strongman Bashar al-Assad resign as president.
    Al-Sadr’s stand against al-Assad is unusual among Shiite movements. The Lebanese Shiite militia, Hizbullah, has entered Syria to battle for al-Assad’s survival. Iran is also strongly backing him. Other Iraqi Shiite militias, such as the League of the Righteous, have sent units to support the al-Assad regime, for instance in the battle for Aleppo. Contrary to what some allege, the Twelver Shiite groups are not very likely to be supporting al-Assad because he has an Alawite Shiite heritage. Alawites are not considered orthodox Muslims by the Twelver Shiites. Rather, there are two reasons for their support. Hizbullah and Iran need Syria to be in friendly hands if Iran is to continue to resupply Hizbullah with munitions for defense of South Lebanon from Israel. Second, al-Assad has configured himself as fighting a wave of Sunni extremism that threatens both secularists and the region’s Shiites.
    Al-Sadr, who has long been considered quirky by other Iraqi leaders, began by calling on US President Donald J. Trump to stop going to excess in taking frivolous and thoughtless positions and decisions. He said Trump’s flakiness not only damages the US but also the world community. He warned that a heavy US intervention in Syria could turn into a Vietnam-style quagmire for Washington. Nor did al-Sadr see how Trump could bombard civilians to death in Mosul and then turn around and condemn the Syrian government for its killing of civilians (admittedly by horrific gas).
    He also doubted that the US could accomplish anything positive in Syria. After all, he said, the Americans announced that they would help roll up ISIL in Iraq years ago, but ISIL is still there.
    Al-Sadr asked, “Wasn’t enough for Syria that all sorts of internal and external actors were interfering in the country, such that the US should now initiate a negative role there, as well? The only one harmed by that,” he said, “is the Syrian people.”
    Al-Sadr added, “I wouldn’t rule out that Trump’s decision to strike Syria will permit Daesh (ISIS, ISIL) to spread into other areas.” If the US wants to play the role of peacemaker and promoter of dialogue in conflict situations, he said, it can’t put off limits an honest broker role in Palestine, Burma, Bahrain, and so forth, where it sides heavily with one side against another.
    Al-Sadr called on all parties to withdraw militarily from Syria and for the Syrian people to take charge, since it is the only legitimate actor that can determine its own destiny. Otherwise, only terrorism and occupation will benefit.
    He specifically said Russia should also leave.
    Al-Sadr went on to say “I find it fair that President Bashar al-Assad should tender his resignation and step down from power out of love for beloved Syria, so as to spare it the horrors of war and its domination by terrorists. He should give the reins of power to some popular and effective individuals who can stand against terrorism, so as to save Syrian territory as quickly as possible, so that his action can be lauded as historic and heroic, before it is too late…”

    #67419
    zn
    Moderator

    Washington’s Supreme Hypocrisy on Chemical Weapons and Civilian Deaths

    Juan Cole

    https://www.juancole.com/2017/04/washingtons-hypocrisy-chemical.html

    The use of chemical weapons by the Syrian Army in Idlib is an atrocity and the pictures of dead children tug at the heart. But the outrage of American politicians inside the beltway about it draws on the myths of American exceptionalism and Alzheimer’s of the political memory. It is also very suspicious in that the loudest voices of sympathy are the ones closest to the US military industrial complex, which has been regretting the missed opportunity of a Syria War.
    If Trump and his circle are so tenderhearted, why did they propose, on taking office, permanently banning Syrian refugees from the United States? If it weren’t for some feisty Federal court judges, the Syrian refugee ban would be in effect. How sympathetic can you be if you don’t even want to give children asylum from these heinous atrocities?
    Then, why is how children are killed in war more important than that they are killed? The most conservative estimate for deaths in the Syrian Civil War is some 300,000, and you figure that although many of those are fighting men, some large proportion (33%?) are innocent noncombatants, including tens of thousands of children. Rebel groups have also killed tens of thousands of people, including innocent civilians, though the regime has been more deadly because better-armed. Why was it all right for the regime to use indiscriminate bombing and barrel bombs on civilian neighborhoods, but if they kill some 80 people with gas all of a sudden the Beltway Bandits want to Send in Trump?
    And by the way, all the time the US was occupying Iraq, 2003-2011, it was intensively bombing civilian neighborhoods to get at Iraqi militias. It certainly killed thousands of innocent civilians this way, including children. I can remember just one Saturday afternoon in 2004, the US bombed Amara over and over again to get at the Shiite Mahdi Army militia. The Agence France Presse had a stringer on the ground who reported 84 deaths. They weren’t all combatants. The US media refused to run the AFP report.
    All this isn’t new. The US has long had a doctrine that it is all right to inflict large civilian casualties with the aim of limited troop casualties. The United States used nuclear weapons on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, after which there were thousands and thousands of dead children. Some were carbonized so quickly that nothing was left of them but shadows on the wall. Little children. The US security elite has never apologized for this war crime and continues to menace other nations with this kind of indiscriminate and unspeakable violence every time it announces that “all options are on the table.”
    As for chemical weapons, the US has studiedly avoided signing unreservedly the 1925 Geneva Protocol banning chemical weapons use. (It says it will use chem if others do, which means it could use chem in Syria now).
    The Reagan administration shamefully ran interference for six years as Saddam Hussein of Iraq systematically deployed chemical weapons against Iranian troops at the front. Everyone knew this was going on. After then Searle CEO Donald Rumsfeld went to Baghdad in 1983 and famously shook Saddam’s hand, George Schultz’s State Department complained about Saddam’s chem, provoking angry puzzlement in Baghdad. Did Reagan want a new ally against Khomeini’s Iran, or not? Reagan had State back down. And, indeed, when Iran appealed to the United Nations Security Council to condemn what Iraq was doing, the Reagan administration maneuvered at the UN to make sure that Iran’s case was not taken up.
    I saw an Iranian survivor interviewed. He said he wished he had been killed instead. His lungs had been permanently scarred by mustard gas, and every breath he took was pure torture. Imagine how many breaths a person draws every day.
    Emboldened by Reagan’s running cover for him at the UN, Saddam went on to have his relative “Chemical Ali” al-Tikriti use sarin gas on the Kurdish town of Halabja. Again, lots of little children were among the thousands dead. Some were walking to school and their little hands were still grasping lunch pails. George H. W. Bush was vice president and must have been in the loop. His son, W., later invaded Iraq and gave as one of his pretexts that Saddam had used ‘weapons of mass destruction’ on ‘his own people.’
    Iraq used chemical weapons for the same reason that the Syrian army does. They are deployed to level the playing field in the face of superior manpower on the other side. Saddam Hussein had a country of 16 million and invaded a country of some 40 million. US military doctrine of the time was you should only invade at a ratio of 3 to 1. So Saddam would have needed a country of 120 million to invade Iran. Needless to say, he lost the war very badly after an initial lightning invasion, since Iran could always over time raise a much bigger army than Saddam could. Hence the use of mustard gas and sarin gas on Iranian troops at the front.
    Some Syrian military units have a chem team in case they face being overwhelmed by a more numerous enemy. The Syrian army was 300,000 before the war. It is at most 50,000 now. That number is not sufficient to control the whole country, though with the help of the Lebanese Hizbullah and Iraqi militias and some Afghans dragooned by the Iranian Revolutionary Guards Corps, plus vigorous Russian air support, they have been able to fight off the rebels and to take most urban areas. The small number of troops means that when they fight in a rebel-held territory like Idlib Province, they are tempted to deploy chemical weapons to offset their small numbers.
    But it is indiscriminate fire and reckless disregard for innocent life that is the war crime here, and indeed a repeated pattern of war crimes is considered a crime against humanity.
    By the way, Russian bombing has often been indiscriminate, but somehow Moscow has skated on war crimes accusations growing out of its heavy-handed role in Syria.
    As for those decrying Obama inaction they need to, like, read the news sometime. For the past several years the US has intervened in Syria in two ways. President Obama used the Saudis to deliver money and weaponry to some 40 “vetted” groups supported by the Central Intelligence Agency, which is certified as having no ties to al-Qaeda or international extremism. Except that several of these groups have in fact formed battlefield alliances with al-Qaeda in Syria (was Jabhat al-Nusra, now Jabhat Fateh Sham or the Syrian Conquest Front).
    Why in the world the US government should have backed groups like the Saudi favorite Army of Islam, which wanted to oppress or kill non-Sunnis baffles me. The rebel groups committed their own massacres of civilians.
    The other US intervention has been thousands of bombing raids against Daesh (ISIS, ISIL) in Raqqa and Deir al-Zor in Syria’s far east.
    Neither of these interventions has been effective to date, and both certainly have raised the death toll in the Civil War, including the civilian death toll.
    Trump can’t stop Syria from using poison gas by bombing Damascus. Since he’s such a good buddy of Russian president Vladimir Putin, maybe he could pressure Putin to have Bashar al-Assad cut it out.
    But that somehow the Syria situation can be made better if only Donald J. Trump would stick his fingers into it is a wildly implausible premise.

    =======

    ===

    ===

    link: http://aranews.net/2017/04/chemical-attack-kills-dozens-northern-syria/

    Chemical attack kills dozens in northern Syria

    April 4, 2017 Syria
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    Syrian boy injured during a suspected regime-led chemical attack being moved to a hospital in Idlib. Activists

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    Tags
    Assad regimeBashar al-Assadchemical agentschemical attackchemical weaponsIdlibSNCSyriaSyrian oppositionSyrian regimevictims
    At least 58 people, including 11 children, died in a suspected gas attack in Syria’s northwestern Idlib province, local sources reported on Tuesday.

    According to the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights (SOHR), people choked or fainted after the attack, while some were seen foaming at the mouth.

    The SOHR said it had received the reports from medics on the ground in the town of Khan Sheikhoun.

    Hours later, a small field hospital in the region was struck and destroyed, according to a civil defence worker in the area.

    The Syrian National Coalition (SNC), the main opposition group, said planes from President Bashar al Assad’s military carried out the airstrikes.

    It was not immediately clear if the deaths had been caused by the chemical weapons or injuries sustained in the airstrikes.

    Videos purporting to show the aftermath circulated on social media.

    One showed the bodies of several young children being covered with a blanket, while another showed men lifting a body into the back of a truck.

    In a number of videos, medics could be seen helping people who appeared to have breathing difficulties.

    Rescue workers were pictured hosing down children.

    More than 60 people were reportedly injured in the airstrikes.

    “At 18 cases had been taken to a hospital in Sarmin town. Because of the number of wounded, they have been distributed around in rural Idlib,” local media activist Mohammed Hassoun said.

    “They were unconscious, they had seizures and when oxygen was administered, they bled from the nose and mouth.”

    Russia’s defence ministry said it had not carried out any airstrikes in the area.

    The Syrian government did not immediately comment on the allegations, but last week said claims the government was using chemical weapons were “devoid of truth”.

    The SNC called for an emergency session of the UN Security Council, blaming the airstrikes on the “regime of the criminal Bashar”.

    It urged the UN to “open an immediate investigation and take the necessary measures to ensure the officials, perpetrators and supporters are held accountable”.

    “Failure to do so will be understood as a message of blessing to the regime for its actions,” it added.

    France later also said that it wanted an emergency Security Council meeting.

    “The perpetrators must be held accountable. We need to address this issue at the Security Council, as soon as possible,” Alexis Lamek, Deputy Permanent Representative of France to the UN, said.

    British Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson said: “This bears all the hallmarks of an attack by the regime, which has repeatedly used chemical weapons.”

    “If this is shown to be the work of the regime, it is further evidence of the atrocities perpetrated against the Syrian people over six years of appalling conflict,” Johnson said.

    Idlib province is almost entirely controlled by the Syrian opposition and is home to 900,000 people displaced from other areas by the 6-year-old war.

    #67420
    zn
    Moderator

    Trump intervenes in the Great Mideast Civil War in Syria

    Juan Cole

    https://www.juancole.com/2017/04/trump-intervenes-mideast.html

    The Syrian Civil War has a domestic, a regional and an international dimension. Domestically, it has become a fight between some largely rural Sunni Arabs (though some are urban as in Ghouta), mostly now of a fundamentalist cast, on the one hand; and on the other the Baath regime of Bashar al-Assad and those groups that support him (most Allawis and Christians, some secular Sunni Arabs) or are neutral toward him (Kurds, Druze).
    Regionally, Tunisia, Egypt, Iraq, Iran, Lebanon and Russia have lined up behind the al-Assad regime, while Turkey, Saudi Arabia and the Gulf Cooperation Council support the mostly fundamentalist Sunni Arab rebels. It is hard to tell exactly where the Israeli government of Binyamin Netanyahu stands. It appears to be mainly worried about increased capacity coming off the conflict for the Lebanese Hizbullah Shiite militia, and not to care a great deal which force rules Damascus.
    It is therefore no surprise that Saudi Arabia and Turkey were among the first governments to praise President Trump’s Tomahawk missile strike on the small Khayrat air force base in Homs province.
    In fact, Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan said in an interview on Turkey’s Channel 7 before the missile strikes that he appreciated Trump’s statement that it is impossible to turn a blind eye to the Syrian government’s use of chemical weapons, but that he needs to see actions, not just words. He said that if Trump swung into action, “the Turkish people are ready to fulfill their responsibility.”
    Erdogan also said that he spoke to Russian President Vladimir Putin after the gas attack, and that Putin questioned whether Bashar al-Assad was really responsible. Erdogan said that if Putin still did not understand the situation after two days, “that pains us.” Russian media has been insisting that the gas was released at Khan Shikhoun when the Syrian Arab Air Force inadvertently struck an al-Qaeda sarin production workshop and released it. But The Guardian’s on-the-scene correspondent looked into the warehouse fingered by Russia and found nothing inside it.
    Saudi Arabia likewise expressed its support for Trump’s cruise missile strike.
    Turkey and Saudi Arabia have been more or less defeated in Syria, with their clients among the fundamentalists, such as the Freemen of Syria (Ahrar al-Sham), having been defeated by the Syrian Arab Army, Hizbullah, Iraqi Shiite militias, and Russia air power. They therefore hope that Trump’s Tomahawk strike might change the situation on the ground. If the regime is demoralized and the fundamentalist rebels take heart, Turkey and Saudi Arabia hope, it is possible that al-Assad could yet be overthrown. Both see al-Assad as a puppet of Iran and as responsible for the mass murder of Sunni Arabs in Syria.
    In contrast, the countries supporting al-Assad, some of whom hope for good relations with Trump, largely held their tongues. It may be that even they could not defend a sarin gas attack. It may be that they just don’t want to speak out against Trump. Egypt’s President Abdulfattah al-Sisi is likely in this column.
    But the likelihood is that Trump’s cruise missile attack was a one-off action rather than the beginning of a full-scale campaign, and that while it may slightly demoralize the Syrian regime, it won’t significantly alter the forces on the field.
    As for Iran, it strongly condemned Trump’s attack on the air base, saying that it will aid terrorism in Syria and will make the difficult Syrian situation even more complicated.

    #67421
    zn
    Moderator

    In 3 months, Trump has Charged into 4 Mideast Wars, to no Avail

    Juan Cole

    https://www.juancole.com/2017/04/months-charged-mideast.html

    In his less than three months in office, Donald Trump has escalated four wars, and all of his escalations have been failures.
    To be fair, Trump inherited all 4 wars from Barack Obama– Afghanistan, Iraq v. ISIL, Leftist Kurds v ISIL in Syria, and targeting support and tactical advice to Saudi Arabia in Yemen.
    Trump campaigned on reducing such foreign entanglements and focusing on the US and its needs. But in office he has declined to rethink any of these commitments and indeed has escalated in each theater.
    Trump’s first escalation was in Yemen, in late January. He sent in a team of navy Seals to attack an alleged al-Qaeda compound. But the man he was targeting had switched sides and was supporting the Yemeni government. The raid produced no useful intelligence and the target disappeared. A navy Seal was killed along with some 30 civilians, including children. The raid did not further the Saudi war aim of defeating the Houthi militia– it was aimed at al-Qaeda in Yemen, which has taken advantage of the Saudi intervention to grab territory.
    In Iraq in late March, once Trump came in, the restrictive rules of operation for the military insisted on by Obama were loosened by the US miltitary. A bombing by a US aircraft caused the collapse of a civilian apartment complex, killing at least 200 innocent civilians.
    In Syria’s Northeastern Front, Trump doubled the number of US special ops troops embeded with the leftist Kurdish militia, the YPG. These forces are intended to attack ISIL in its Syrian capital, Raqqa, but despite promises by Trump, no such concerted new campaign has begun. Then when it appeared last week that the Syrian regime used poison gas in its struggle against the al-Qaeda affiliate and its allies in the Northwestern Front at Idlib, Trump dropped 59 Tomahawk missiles on a small airbase. No significant damage was done and Syria was flying missions again the next day.
    On Thursday, Trump hit with an 1100 ton bomb some caves in Nangarhar, Afghanistan, said to be being used by Taliban rebels who had joined ISIL. The US has lost 1/3 of Afghanistan to fundamentalist rebels, mostly Taliban, in a 16-year war that is going worse now than than at any time since spring, 2002. There is no prospect of defeating guerrillas with air power, no matter how massive. The US carpet-bombed Vietnam and still lost. The desperation of the Trump administration is demonstrated by the use of old Saddam Hussein hyperbole, calling the missile ‘The Mother of all Bombs.’ Trump is actually translating his propaganda directly from Dictator Arabic! Saddam had called the Gulf War ‘the Mother of all Battles’ (Umm al-Ma’arik), though this was a literal press translation. The phrase means the ‘essence of all battles.’ Saddam’s hyperbole did not serve him well.
    What all four Trump interventions in his ongoing US wars in the Middle East have in common is that they were splashy, produced headlines for a day, and altered the course of the conflict not a jot or a tittle.
    Trump is gradually inducting his Four Wars into his Reality-Show universe, where everything is done for ratings and just for show.

    #67425
    wv
    Participant

    Cole said: “The use of chemical weapons by the Syrian Army in Idlib is an atrocity..”

    But that has not been proven. Where is the clear and convincing evidence that the Syrian Army used chemical weapons?

    The Russians and Assad say they didnt do it. The US says Assad did it. Where’s the proof?

    w
    v

    #67426
    zn
    Moderator

    Cole said: “The use of chemical weapons by the Syrian Army in Idlib is an atrocity..”

    But that has not been proven. Where is the clear and convincing evidence that the Syrian Army used chemical weapons?

    The Russians and Assad say they didnt do it. The US says Assad did it. Where’s the proof?

    w
    v

    No, it;s the Russians that deny it. “Has not been proven” is the Russian line. I actually published within all that a local independent middle eastern news source that accepts the line that it was syria. I’ve been insisting on this point: take views from those who are echoing the Russians on this, and it’s no help…it actually just muddies things.

    Cole is without equal the leading american commentator on the region. I would take his view over anyone who is just parroting the Russians—any day.

    Cole was a godsend of neutral deep commentary and reporting when I was looking at sources on the run up to the iraq war.

    #67428
    zn
    Moderator

    Russia’s not Leaving: Syria is about old-Fashioned Sphere of Influence, not Oil

    Juan Cole

    https://www.juancole.com/2017/04/russias-fashioned-influence.html

    Russia is not going to yield its sphere of influence in Syria to Donald Trump or anyone else. Russia has all but won the Syrian War as we speak. There is no longer any feasible pathway for the rebels to take the capital of Damascus. The non-ISIL groups have lost all major urban areas except for Ghouta near Damascus. They are bottled up there and in rural northern Idlib province, and likely the regime will overwhelm them in both places over the next year, with Russian air support. ISIL itself is on the verge of losing everything in Iraq and of being rolled up, over the next year or two, in Eastern Syria.
    BBC Monitoring translated from Interfax for April 10,

    “Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov . . . said . . . “The American side has thus demonstrated its complete unwillingness to cooperate on Syria in any form or take account of each others’ interests and concerns. . . The return to pseudo-attempts to settle [the Syrian conflict] in the spirit of reciting ‘Assad must go’ mantras cannot bring anyone closer to political settlement in Syria,” he said. Peskov was commenting on remarks by French Foreign Minister Jean-Marc Ayrault, who earlier called on Russia to distance itself from Assad.”
    Source: Interfax news agency, Moscow, in Russian 1015 gmt 10 Apr 17

    I think we should take Moscow seriously on this.
    What can be said is that there are four major local forces in Syria: 1) the western urban regime stretching from Damascus to Latakia and Aleppo; 2) the fundamentalist rebels, whether moderate Muslim Brotherhood or Salafi Jihadis such as the Freemen of Syria or the Syrian Conquest Front; 3) The YPG leftist Kurds in the northeast and 4) ISIL.

    The West and Northwest are a Russian sphere of influence, and the Bashar al-Assad regime and the Russians have, as I said, all but defeated the fundamentalist rebels there. (There are non-fundamentalist rebels, especially in Ghouta, but they frankly have never amounted to anything on the battlefield). The regime’s occasional use of poison gas is intended as a force multiplier, since at a low 50,000 or so men under arms they can barely control the country, much less take back big swathes of territory, even with intensive Russian air support. The other force multiplier is total war tactics such as starving out civilian populations among whom guerrilla groups hide out, or deliberately hitting hospitals and other essential service-providers in rebel areas. While the regime may become more cautious about the use of gas, it may simply double down on indiscriminate bombing.
    A caution: on the map above, the reddish areas under regime control look geographically small. They actually contain about 75 percent of the population.
    The east is an American sphere of influence, where the US is backing leftist Kurds to take on ISIL.
    There is also a small strip of land north of Aleppo that is a Turkish sphere of influence, where fundamentalist rebels are still operating, but it doesn’t amount to much and Turkey backed off challenging either Russia or the US-Kurdish alliance in any frontal way.
    The Syrian conflict is a challenge to economic theories of imperialism, whether that of J. A. Hobson or that of Vladimir Lenin. It is not about markets. It is not about monopoly capital. It is not about oil or hydrocarbon resources. It is not about pipelines. Other Middle East conflicts have taken place that could be explained that way. But today’s Syria isn’t such a case.
    There simply is not much money to be made in Syria. Before the war it had a small population of 22 million. Its gross domestic product of $77 bn is less than that of the island of Puerto Rico and less than half that of Peru, one of the poorer countries in the Western Hemisphere.
    Syria was pumping about 400,000 barrels a day of petroleum, which is next to nothing. One fracked field in North Dakota does that. Saudi Arabia does 10 mn b/d and Iraq does 3. Nor is the conflict about pipelines. Nowadays both oil and liquefied natural gas can be inexpensively exported by supertanker and while a pipeline might be nice it wouldn’t be worth fighting a war over.
    Syria is important to Russia because
    1. It is near to Russia and Chechen fundamentalist rebels are operating there in alliance with al-Qaeda and with Daesh (ISIS, ISIL). It is unacceptable to Russia for the fundamentalist rebels to win and sweep into Damascus, since this development would potentially destabilize the Russian Caucasus.
    2. Vladimir Putin, the president of Russia, is a neo-nationalist who feels as though Russia got a raw deal from the US and NATO after the collapse of the Soviet Union. Russia was reduced to a weak joke, and lost the spheres of influence that characterize a Great Power. It has lost even nearby assets such as the Ukraine. It lost Libya. Syria was a place where Putin could show the flag and bring home some victories.
    Syria on the other hand is not important to the US. Syria’s alliance with Iran makes it inconvenient for both of the major US allies in the region, Saudi Arabia and Israel. But the Israeli security establishment is divided about whether it is better to leave al-Assad in power or to welcome the Sunni fundamentalists into Damascus in order to weaken the Shiite Hizbullah in Lebanon. After all, an al-Qaeda state next door would be much worse than a little isolated militia like Hizbullah. Saudi Arabia has no such reservations, but its proxies in Syria have mostly been defeated and it can’t do anything more there except play spoiler and encourage what will amount, after the war is over, to mere terrorism. Aside from the Iran consideration, the US has no stake in Syria except to deprive Daesh/ ISIL of a base there from which to attack Europe. But the US cannot defeat ISIL without de facto strengthening the al-Assad regime.
    All this is why Russia will remain in Syria and will have most of it as its sphere of influence. Russia has clear motivations and clear goals there, a strong ally with most of the population under its control, and a practical plan for accomplishing them, which has worked well if sanguinarily so far.
    In contrast, the US has no obvious motivation to be in Syria except fighting Daesh. Its policies are therefore muddled. It is damaging its relationship with a big important country, Turkey (pop. 78 mn., GDP $800 bn), by its alliance with the small PYD Syrian Kurdish population of some 2 million, for the instrumental purpose of rolling up Daesh. Maybe the military-industrial complex in the US would like a war just to make some money, and maybe the Neoconservatives would like a war to contain Iran. But neither of them is likely to be able to dictate to Trump, who likely hasn’t given up on better relations with Putin and doesn’t need either of those groups to be reelected.
    My guess is that the Tomahawk strikes were impulsive and a one-off. The Russian-dominated status quo is not significantly affected, and there isn’t an early prospect of it so being.

    #67434
    wv
    Participant

    Cole said: “The use of chemical weapons by the Syrian Army in Idlib is an atrocity..”

    But that has not been proven. Where is the clear and convincing evidence that the Syrian Army used chemical weapons?

    The Russians and Assad say they didnt do it. The US says Assad did it. Where’s the proof?

    w
    v

    No, it;s the Russians that deny it. “Has not been proven” is the Russian line. I actually published within all that a local independent middle eastern news source that accepts the line that it was syria. I’ve been insisting on this point: take views from those who are echoing the Russians on this, and it’s no help…it actually just muddies things.

    Cole is without equal the leading american commentator on the region. I would take his view over anyone who is just parroting the Russians—any day.

    Cole was a godsend of neutral deep commentary and reporting when I was looking at sources on the run up to the iraq war.

    ===============
    Nah. I strongly disagree. There’s all kinds of people out there saying it hasn’t been proven. Glenn Greenwald, lots of others. Its not been proven. You are simply wrong on this. You are accepting the Western mantra as proof.

    For example the guy that wrote that article in the second link doesnt even LIKE Asaad. Anyway, i cant do much posting for a coupla days. No time. We can get into it later and i will dance circles around you logically.

    w
    v

    • This reply was modified 7 years, 5 months ago by wv.
    #67454
    wv
    Participant

    Truthout:http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/40222-new-revelations-belie-trump-claims-on-syria-chemical-attack

    “…However, two new revelations contradict the Trump administration’s line on the April 4 attack. A former US official knowledgeable about the episode told Truthout that the Russians had actually informed their US counterparts in Syria of the Syrian military’s plan to strike the warehouse in Khan Sheikhoun 24 hours before the strike. And a leading analyst on military technology, Dr. Theodore Postol of MIT, has concluded that the alleged device for a sarin attack could not have been delivered from the air but only from the ground, meaning that the chemical attack may not have been the result of the Syrian airstrike….” see link

    #67456
    zn
    Moderator

    You are accepting the Western mantra as proof.

    All I see people doing is comparing the Russian/Assad account with the accounts from others, which are widespread and do not simply reduce to being pro-USA (Cole is deeply critical of USA policy). I like Cole because he reads outside the normal circles–he’s reading, for example middle eastern accounts.

    I just don’t buy the Russian/Assad account for a second, I don’t pay any attention at all to the USA official account, and I look for people like Cole who are just simply not beholden to the USA account and think independently. That’s not “western.” I directly quoted a middle eastern account of this, one Cole cites.

    Meanwhile every denial I see goes straight back to simply repeating Assad/The Russians. And I am no more going to take that version seriously than I was going to give Hussein any credence when I was looking into things leading to the run up to war.

    None of this of course even touches on whether an American attack on Syria was warranted (it wasn’t) and whether or not the USA should be involved in Syria in any way shape or form (it shouldn’t).

    It;s apparently very easy to find things repeating the Russian view. I challenge you to find things that are much more independent and outside the normal circles of the Russian OR the USA propaganda. The kinds of sources I am talking about (like Cole) have much more weight and value than some of the scattered commentators who echo the Russians.

    I don’t buy the “no proof” line wv and I have given it consideration. I think it’s just the Russian view being echoed.

    This for example is just the same old stuff repeated:

    “…However, two new revelations contradict the Trump administration’s line on the April 4 attack. A former US official knowledgeable about the episode told Truthout that the Russians had actually informed their US counterparts in Syria of the Syrian military’s plan to strike the warehouse in Khan Sheikhoun 24 hours before the strike. And a leading analyst on military technology, Dr. Theodore Postol of MIT, has concluded that the alleged device for a sarin attack could not have been delivered from the air but only from the ground, meaning that the chemical attack may not have been the result of the Syrian airstrike….” see link

    That’s just the Russian version in a new repetition.

    Cole is a deep, long, and solid friend of the left, going back years, and way back when was one of the sources that made it possible to understand Iraq. And he is all of those things by virtue of being one of the best informed people on the region. To me he is not be scoffed at just because there’s a faction of euro-lefties that for some reason keep repeating Russian narratives on this.

    It would take a lot to convince me otherwise. A lot more than what I have seen so far anyway.

    And…we have to stay friends in spite of minor differences over one minor incident.

    #67464
    zn
    Moderator

    As time clicks by this gets more incoherent. Assad denies anything took place. Russia, after UN people saw victims in a Turkish facility, does not deny there was a chemical attack, just that it wasn’t Assad’s Syrians who did it. The Russian claim now is not to deny something happened involving chemical weapons, but that the Assad forces were bombing terrorists who had the weapons. (They say THAT, which they can’t prove, at the same time they do they you can’t prove it line.) Against the charge that Assad has used chemical weapons before, some claim it did not happen, but truth is back then, in the face of huge international pressure in 2013, Assad openly and explicitly agreed to eliminate his chemical weapons program. Russians demand “proof” that the Assad regime was involved in the attack, and remember they (unlike Assad) are not denying there were casualties of chemical weapons, but they know full well that the kind of intel that would track flights of Syrian (and Russian) planes in the area is never going to be made public…and their so-called proof that it was a terrorist facility got demolished because Guardian reporters on the ground were capable of inspecting the sites named by the Russians and said the Russian claims were bogus. Meanwhile independents like Cole are relying on sources that are neither American nor Russian.

    My take is this. There was an attack, it has happened before, Assad’s forces did it (like before), the Russian “there is no proof” campaign is just war propaganda, Trump’s response was deliriously ineffective grandstanding, and the only thing that ends all this is a brokered Russian/American deal that halts the war and promises Assad will eventually depart power.

    And I also say that all of the above is A (and not THE ONLY) genuinely left vision of all this. The left being divided on all this to me is just a bad symptom of how info works these days, as opposed to back in the old days, when you could reliably demonstrate the whys and hows and details for the argument against Bush’s iraq invasion.

    #67476
    wv
    Participant

    Another Russian propagandist: Seymour Hersh 🙂

    https://www.lrb.co.uk/v36/n08/seymour-m-hersh/the-red-line-and-the-rat-line

    “…Why did Obama delay and then relent on Syria when he was not shy about rushing into Libya? The answer lies in a clash between those in the administration who were committed to enforcing the red line, and military leaders who thought that going to war was both unjustified and potentially disastrous.

    Obama’s change of mind had its origins at Porton Down, the defence laboratory in Wiltshire. British intelligence had obtained a sample of the sarin used in the 21 August attack and analysis demonstrated that the gas used didn’t match the batches known to exist in the Syrian army’s chemical weapons arsenal. The message that the case against Syria wouldn’t hold up was quickly relayed to the US joint chiefs of staff. The British report heightened doubts inside the Pentagon; the j..”oint chiefs were already preparing to warn Obama that his plans for a far-reaching bomb and missile attack on Syria’s infrastructure could lead to a wider war in the Middle East. As a consequence the American officers delivered a last-minute caution to the president, which, in their view, eventually led to his cancelling the attack.

    #67477
    Billy_T
    Participant

    Who knows who did it? Or, if chemical weapons were used at all? WV and Zooey make great points about the use of chemical weapons not being in the best interest of Assad. Then again, it’s not in his best interest to bomb the shit out of his own populace, and no one disputes Assad has been doing that for years. That’s not a controversy subject to competing versions of the truth right now. And, frankly, what does it matter to the dead how they were killed? It’s not as if being blow to bits is the “nicer” way to go.

    Dead is dead. War is war. A tangent to this is that it makes next to no sense for people to freak out about “terrorist” attacks, make public announcements of national, even international solidarity when a lone “terrorist” runs down half a dozen human beings, but no such hysteria exists, and zero public statements of solidarity arise, when millions of human beings die because of poverty, hunger, pollution, domestic gunfire, curable diseases, etc. etc. Millions of children die each year from hunger and poverty. Where is the national and international outcry about this? Where is the solidarity?

    If someone could find a way to make hunger, homelessness, poverty, inequality, rampant gun violence, pollution or death via smoking a matter of “terrorism,” we’d solve all of that shit in months.

    #67478
    zn
    Moderator

    Or, if chemical weapons were used at all

    Even the Russians don’t deny that much. UN people were able to examine some of the victims. The Russian version is that the chemical attack came from Assad forces bombing rebel chemical weapons which went off and the civilians were just collateral damage. The Russians even went so far as to name particular buildings that were involved. The Guardian had people on the ground who checked out the Russian story and called it bogus.

    So again…remember, the Russians do not deny people were killed and injured by chemical weapons. It’s only the earlier deniers who were saying that.

    #67484
    Billy_T
    Participant

    I think it’s likely that chemical weapons were used, and that Assad is responsible. My point above is that this is the fog of war, and we can’t be certain about anything other than the fact of war itself. Civil wars, with umpteen factions, make the fog all that thicker.

    All kinds of competing narratives are in play, as you know, and we may never learn the truth. Saying any of that, obviously, is far from original, but it appears we’re stuck in a “post-truth” world right now beyond anything we’ve encountered in centuries. The center isn’t holding. What rough beast and all of that.

    A larger point is that it makes no sense to me that chemical weapons themselves should mark some “red line.” Though this, too, is disputed, overall deaths from the civil wars in Syria are approaching 500,000, and it’s highly doubtful that more than a fraction of that comes from chemical weaponry. The entire thing is madness, and I find it appalling that Trump was suddenly deemed “presidential” by so much of the media for a bombing raid in retaliation for this . . . .

    I see no good answer. None. And with North Korea rattling its sabers, in response to Trump rattler his . . . well, so much for the supposedly less hawkish candidate winning.

    #67485
    zn
    Moderator

    I think it’s likely that chemical weapons were used, and that Assad is responsible. My point above is that this is the fog of war, and we can’t be certain about anything other than the fact of war itself.

    Well I agree with the liklihood that Assad used them (and that he has before.)

    However, this does not strike me as a fog of war situation. It’s more like a fog of propaganda situation.

    It is actually not that hard for the surveillance systems involved to say what aircraft flew from where to where.

    This is why the Russian denial is not as flat stupid as Assad’s. Assad, who of course is as much a pig as Hussein ever was, denies anything happened at all. The Russians in contrast acknowledge (1) that Assad’s aircraft were involved (because they know full well that american detection capacities extend to knowing at least THAT much), and (2) that there were injuries and deaths from chemical weapons (because the know full well that UN personnel had access to some of the injured) BUT their claim is that Assad attacked rebels who had chemical weapons and those went off…not that Assad’s guys dropped them. So the Russian story at least accounts for what they know would be known information. However, their version also names specific buildings that were targetted and as it happens Guardian reporters were on the ground there and checked that story out and it was bs.

    The real issue, IMO, is whether a pointless and ineffectual grandstanding attack accomplishes anything or whether it’s just an escalation with us acting like we can do what we want when we want militarily. We probably agree on that, too.

    #67491
    wv
    Participant

    link:http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/critique_white_house_fabrications_syrias_alleged_use_of_lethal_gas_20170414

    “…Theodore A. Postol is professor emeritus of science, technology and national security policy at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and a specialist in weapons issue. At the Congressional Office of Technology Assessment, he advised on missile basing, and he later was a scientific consultant to the chief of naval operations at the Pentagon. He is a recipient of the Leo Szilard Prize from the American Physical Society and the Hilliard Roderick Prize from the American Association for the Advancement of Science, and he was awarded the Norbert Wiener Award from Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility for uncovering numerous and important false claims about missile defenses.

    This is my third report assessing the White House intelligence Report (WHR) of April 11. My first report was titled “A Quick Turnaround Assessment of the White House Intelligence Report Issued on April 11, 2017 About the Nerve Agent Attack in Khan Shaykhun, Syria,” and my second report was an addendum to the first report.

    This report provides unambiguous evidence that the White House Intelligence Report contains false and misleading claims that could not possibly have been accepted in any professional review by impartial intelligence experts. The WHR was produced by the National Security Council under the oversight of national security adviser Lt. Gen. H.R. McMaster….”

    #67492
    wv
    Participant

    Who knows who did it?

    ============

    I share that point of view. If this was a ‘crime’ in a criminal court, I’d say no-one has proved anything beyond a reasonable doubt.

    I’m still in the fact-gathering stage though. Just beginning the fact gathering actually. Scratching the surface. I’m in no hurry.

    But as of now, I am totally skeptical of the white house point of view. (and every other theory — the russian theory too) I’m skeptical of the WHPV because it makes ZERO sense to me that Assad would have any motivation at all to do this. I mean Trump had JUST said for the first time he was NOT interested in regime change. The whole world is watching Syria. Asaad was winning. Why fuck all that up ? Makes zero sense. And asaad is a very smart guy.

    w
    v

    • This reply was modified 7 years, 5 months ago by wv.
    • This reply was modified 7 years, 5 months ago by wv.
    #67521
    Billy_T
    Participant

    Who knows who did it?

    ============

    I share that point of view. If this was a ‘crime’ in a criminal court, I’d say no-one has proved anything beyond a reasonable doubt.

    I’m still in the fact-gathering stage though. Just beginning the fact gathering actually. Scratching the surface. I’m in no hurry.

    But as of now, I am totally skeptical of the white house point of view. (and every other theory — the russian theory too) I’m skeptical of the WHPV because it makes ZERO sense to me that Assad would have any motivation at all to do this. I mean Trump had JUST said for the first time he was NOT interested in regime change. The whole world is watching Syria. Asaad was winning. Why fuck all that up ? Makes zero sense. And asaad is a very smart guy.

    w
    v

    Being in the fact-gathering stage maybe what we’re left with, when all is said and done. Again, I doubt the truth will come out for a long, long time. Civil wars are notoriously difficult when it comes to sussing out competing propaganda streams, as you know. But, most likely, the “winner” in all of this will get the last word, and then the world will move on to the next atrocity.

    As for none of this making any sense. Well, that seems to be the modern condition. To me, for instance, it makes absolutely zero sense that majorities would ever accept an economic system that screws them on an hourly basis, and is run by a tiny fraction of the overall population, to benefit that tiny fraction, at tremendous cost to those majorities. It makes zero sense to me for majorities to accept any for-profit, privately held economic system, when a non-profit, publicly held one would radically increase choice, autonomy and living standards for 90-99% of the nation. And I do mean radically.

    So much of life is bizarre, if you really think about it. Like, me, or you, or anyone sticking with the Rams for 50 years, especially given recent seasons.

    Oh, well.

    #67525
    zn
    Moderator

    Being in the fact-gathering stage maybe what we’re left with, when all is said and done. Again, I doubt the truth will come out for a long, long time.

    I am not buying this. The truth is already out…some people are trying to obscure it. Not sure why anyone would want to contest that…nothing is gained either way by pretending the Syrian and Russian versions (which are actually different) make any sense.

    (BTW I am also not buying the latest Trump administration escalation on this which claims the Russians knew in advance the attack was coming. The most reasonable take on this to me is that Assad just went back on his agreement from 2013 to not use chemical weapons again–an agreement that involved both the USA and Russia.)

    What’s surprising in the 2010s, which is very different from the run-up to the Iraq war, is that some leftie blogger types are buying into the Russian and Syrian routines on this.

    If you read closely about the 2013 chemical attack, the one that led to massive international pressure and even had Assad publicly declaring he would abandon chemical weapons programs, the military capacity to track Syrian communications and flights is very sophisticated. Which, again, is why the Russian cover story had to at least include the facts that there were Syrian planes involved AND that there was an actual chemical attack. (Assad’;s “denial” didn’t even do that much.)

    To me this “it’s not clear” motif has about the same degree of minor annoyance as did having to debate serious people who bought into Russian trolling and were actually trying to claim that Hillary had a minor campaign person assassinated.

    It’s a new factor in discussing issues.

    It was far easier to pull up info back in the run-up to war in Iraq, when the left wasn’t divided by bad conspiracy theories.

    Just a man’s opinion.

    But I have shut down sources and took them off of bookmarks that show any hint of just parroting the Russian views on Syria. They do not help. They are part of the problem.

    #67527
    zn
    Moderator

    Russia ‘furious’ with Assad over gas attack

    http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2017/04/russia-us-chemical-weapons-attack-assad-putin-tillerson.html

    Privately, Russian officials are furious with Syrian President Bashar al-Assad for a suspected April 4 chemical weapons attack in Idlib province that killed over 80 people, Russia analysts said. They see it as threatening to sabotage the potential for US-Russia rapprochement ahead of US Secretary of State Rex Tillerson’s first visit to Moscow this week.

    But Russia is also confused by what it perceives as contradictory statements from various top Trump Cabinet officials on whether US policy is shifting to demand Assad’s ouster, to what degree does the United States think Russia is culpable for Assad’s behavior, and more broadly, who from the administration speaks for Donald Trump, they said.

    “Assad committed suicide here,” Michael Kofman, a Russia military expert with the Kennan Institute, told Al-Monitor in an interview April 10. Russia “will never forgive him for this.”

    TheApril 4 nerve gas attack on rebel-held Khan Sheikhoun that killed over 80 people, many of them children, “is a complete disaster” for Russia, Kofman said. “It destroyed the legacy of the 2013 deal [to remove Syria’s chemical weapons] that both countries [the United States and Russia] certified. So it made liars of both of us.”

    He noted, “It provided all the ammunition to sabotage rapprochement between the United States and Russia. Look at the atmospherics. It caused public embarrassment. [Russian President Vladimir] Putin has to swallow US cruise missile strikes. Notice he has not defended Assad. It looks bad for Russia.”

    Kofman added, “It demonstrates … in terms of Putin being a power broker … that the Russian role is very aspirational. It prevented him from doing this.”

    “The Russians weren’t happy about what happened,” Nikolas Gvosdev, a Russia expert and professor at the US Naval War College, told Al-Monitor, referring to the April 4 chemical weapons attack. “They don’t like unpredictability … when things happen that throw what they are planning off course.”

    “The Russians don’t like to be surprised,” Gvosdev added. “They don’t like … [to be made to] look like they can’t enforce agreements or don’t have as much influence over Assad as they were suggesting.”

    While US officials have said the US cruise missile strikes on the Shayrat air base on April 6 were to punish and deter Syria’s use of chemical weapons, there has been some confusion caused by statements from different Trump Cabinet officials on whether US policy is creeping toward regime change. US officials, including US Ambassador to the United Nations Nikki Haley and national security adviser H.R. McMaster, have also suggested Russia was either complicit or incompetent for Assad’s chemical weapons attack. They have expressed anger that Russia has, in their opinion, tried to publicly sow disinformation about it.

    Even while pressuring Russia because of its diplomatic and military support to Assad, McMaster reiterated that the United States is still looking for a political resolution to end Syria’s civil war.

    Assad’s actions have upended what was an important foreign policy priority for Putin — exploring the potential for cooperation with the United States on Syria and a possible rapprochement — and have seemingly taken sanctions relief off the table for discussion for now, and Russia will not forgive him, Kofman said.

    “They are furious; it is very clear,” Kofman said, noting that there has been “no actual statement from Putin in support of Assad.”

    #67528
    Billy_T
    Participant

    To me this “it’s not clear” motif has about the same degree of minor annoyance as did having to debate serious people who bought into Russian trolling and were actually trying to claim that Hillary had a minor campaign person assassinated.

    It’s a new factor in discussing issues.

    It was far easier to pull up info back in the run-up to war in Iraq, when the left wasn’t divided by bad conspiracy theories.

    Just a man’s opinion.

    But I have shut down sources and took them off of bookmarks that show any hint of just parroting the Russian views on Syria. They do not help. They are part of the problem.

    Well, you may remember where I stand on the Trump/Russia issue, so, at least for me, this isn’t even in the same universe.

    All I’m saying is that a civil war is going to breed a hell of a lot of fog, especially the one in Syria in which dozens of factions exist, most of which hate each other, even when they ostensibly fight together. And Assad has his propaganda, Russia theirs, America theirs, Turkey theirs, with the latter nation seemingly heading down the path to outright dictatorship via the ballot. How crazy is that!

    Anyway, as mentioned, I think it’s safe to say Assad is a pig and a butcher, and should have stepped aside years ago, when it was abundantly clear the vast majority of Syrians detested him. Instead, he’s waged war against his own population, with extreme ruthlessness, with millions fleeing the country, and roughly half a million dead. Rebels, Assad, the various “great powers,” all to blame to various degrees, but most of this is on Assad, IMO.

    I just don’t get why chemical weaponry is the red line here, or the main focus. At most, it’s been the cause of a fraction of a fraction of the death, misery and exile in Syria. Why this, and why now?

    #67529
    zn
    Moderator

    Syria Conspiracy Theories Flourish, at Both Ends of the Spectrum

    link: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/10/us/politics/factcheck-syria-strike-conspiracy-theories.html

    A satellite image showed the northwest side of the Shayrat air base in Syria on Friday after a United States strike with Tomahawk missiles. Credit Digital Globe, via Associated Press
    WASHINGTON — President Trump’s order for a cruise missile strike on a Syrian air base, which has alienated some of his supporters, has fueled speculation of hidden motives and hoaxes.

    Websites like Infowars are calling the chemical attack that drew United States fire a “false flag” operation, while liberal blogs have pointed to the strike as evidence of “wag the dog” diversion tactics.

    Ian Bremmer, the founder of the Eurasia group, said he was not “buying any of them” and pointed out that the theories conveniently fit preconceived notions and motives, but don’t really make sense.

    Here’s an assessment of some of them.

    Information Clearing House argued that President Bashar al-Assad had no reason to use chemical weapons

    “With the Syrian Army and its allies in a comfortable position in Syria, making advances across the country, and recovering lost points in rural Hama, why would they now resort to using chemical weapons in Nusra Front-occupied Idlib? It is a very simple question with no clear answer.”

    THIS IS MISLEADING. There are numerous reasons Mr. Assad’s forces would conduct a chemical attack.

    The attack is consistent with Mr. Assad’s calculated strategy of attempting to drive out the civilian population in rebel strongholds through bombing neighborhoods and civilian targets, The Times’s Anne Barnard reported.

    Mr. Assad also may have felt emboldened after Secretary of State Rex W. Tillerson and Nikki R. Haley, the United States’ ambassador to the United Nations, suggested that driving him from power was not a priority.

    So using sarin gas “made a lot of sense after public signals that the U.S. might not be seeking to oust him,” said Anthony Cordesman of the Center for Strategic and International Studies. “You don’t need to kill a lot of people, but you can frighten a lot of people.”

    We Are Change claimed anti-Assad forces had advance knowledge of the sarin attack.

    “A Syrian reporter for Gulf-based Orient TV tweeted about the attack 24 hours before it took place.”

    FALSE. Infowars and others pointed to social media posts from Feras Karam, a reporter for Orient News, as evidence of a hoax. But Mr. Karam was referring to a different attack.

    “Tomorrow is the launch of a media campaign to cover the intensity of the airstrikes on the countryside of #Hama and use of #poison_chlorine against civilians,” Mr. Karam wrote on Facebook and Twitter on April 3.

    Sarin gas hit the town of Khan Sheikhoun early on the morning of April 4 in the rebel-held Idlib Province. That’s about 36 kilometers north of Hama, which Mr. Karam alleged had been targeted by chlorine a day earlier.

    Chlorine attacks, as The Times has reported, are less deadly and have been almost routine in Syria.

    Infowars claimed that the White Helmets were the real culprits.

    “The White Helmets, an Al Qaeda affiliated group funded by George Soros and the British government, have reportedly staged another chemical weapon attack on civilians in the Syrian city of Khan Shaykhun to lay blame on the Syrian government.”

    NO EVIDENCE. The White Helmets are volunteers that act as emergency medical workers in Syria. Allegations about their ties to terrorists and complicity in the chemical attack are unproven.

    The websites offer no evidence for their claim that the White Helmets are “Al Qaeda affiliated” beyond implying that it cannot be a coincidence that 250 people in Hama were kidnapped by Al Qaeda a week before the sarin attack, “which is the same number as the current body count of wounded and killed civilians.”

    The Times could not locate reports from credible media sources about the alleged recent kidnapping, and the 250 figure is unsubstantiated as well. Initial estimates for the death toll ranged from dozens to as many as 100 in the immediate aftermath of the attack. Unicef said 546 people were injured, “among them many children.”

    Mr. Assad himself accused the White Helmets of being “Al Qaeda members” without evidence in an interview in March with RT, a news outlet funded by the Russian government. (RT and Sputnik News regularly link the nongovernment organization to different terrorist groups.)

    Given Russia’s support of Mr. Assad, casting doubt on the White Helmets is “basic counterinsurgency in certainly ruthless terms,” Mr. Cordesman said. “If you can alter the flow of aid, you can depopulate the area and essentially gain control of territory.”

    The websites also questioned why White Helmets appeared to be “unaffected” even though some had treated victims without wearing gloves. But some rescue workers did grow ill and collapsed from exposure.

    Another theory posited by the websites suggested that Mr. Assad couldn’t have been capable of launching the attack because President Barack Obama and Secretary of State John Kerry declared Syria’s stockpile eliminated in 2014, while opposition forces still had chemical weapons.

    Obama administration officials have maintained that Mr. Assad might have hidden a small supply. It’s also possible that Syrian government manufactured new weapons. Suggestions that rebel forces were behind the attack are dubious, Mr. Cordesman said, because of the nature of sarin.

    “You don’t suddenly bomb a sarin gas deposit and have sarin gas emerge,” he said. “It isn’t armed. The rebels couldn’t have been stockpiling in secret. It’s really difficult to assemble.”

    Salon questioned Mr. Trump’s giving Russia advance notice of the airstrike.

    “Donald Trump, who’s totally not Vladimir Putin’s puppet, warned Russia before airstrikes on Syria.”

    THIS NEEDS CONTEXT. The Pentagon said Russian forces were notified in advance of the strike to minimize the risk to Syrian or Russian soldiers. But there are explanations other than collusion.

    The United States has been engaging in an air war against Islamic State fighters in Syria, where Russian and Syrian forces also operate. Even with advance notice, the airstrike has threatened cooperation, or rather lack of interference, and strained diplomatic relations between the United States and Russia.

    Not warning the Russians would have forced a much more severe response from Moscow and would have been “completely irresponsible,” Mr. Bremmer said.

    “It’s certainly true that Trump doesn’t want the level of scrutiny on the Russia ties, but he does want a better relationship,” Mr. Bremmer said. “It’s very clear that the Russians are very unhappy so the idea that there’s coordination is ludicrous.”

    The Palmer Report pointed to the strike’s limited efficacy.

    “Donald Trump gets defensive about Syria runways, tacitly admitting he was doing Russia’s bidding.”

    NO EVIDENCE. The 59 Tomahawk cruise missiles were aimed at Syrian fighter jets and aircraft shelters at Shayrat airfield, but did leave the runways intact. Suggestions that the United States spared the airstrips because of collusion are, again, unproven.

    Mr. Bremmer said that he was surprised the United States didn’t seek to degrade the base further, but emphasized that there was “zero evidence” the limited strike was a facade.

    #67532
    wv
    Participant

    “…Information Clearing House argued that President Bashar al-Assad had no reason to use chemical weapons

    “With the Syrian Army and its allies in a comfortable position in Syria, making advances across the country, and recovering lost points in rural Hama, why would they now resort to using chemical weapons in Nusra Front-occupied Idlib? It is a very simple question with no clear answer.”

    THIS IS MISLEADING. There are numerous reasons Mr. Assad’s forces would conduct a chemical attack.

    The attack is consistent with Mr. Assad’s calculated strategy of attempting to drive out the civilian population in rebel strongholds through bombing neighborhoods and civilian targets, The Times’s Anne Barnard reported.

    Mr. Assad also may have felt emboldened after Secretary of State Rex W. Tillerson and Nikki R. Haley, the United States’ ambassador to the United Nations, suggested that driving him from power was not a priority.

    So using sarin gas “made a lot of sense after public signals that the U.S. might not be seeking to oust him,” said Anthony Cordesman of the Center for Strategic and International Studies. “You don’t need to kill a lot of people, but you can frighten a lot of people.”
    =================

    I’m sorry but that is just laughable imho. Asaad doesnt seem nearly that stupid to me. Using POISON GAS right after Trump had said the US in no longer seeking regime change? Nah. Makes no sense that Asaad would be that stupid. The NYTimes article is laughable, imho.

    Doesnt mean Asaad didnt do it, but man, so far its not even 50/50 to me, let alone proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

    Btw, has the Times ever met an airstrike it didnt like?

    w
    v

    #67535
    zn
    Moderator

    I’m sorry but that is just laughable imho. Asaad doesnt seem nearly that stupid to me.

    UN personnel already tested victims. Gas was used. Which is why the Russians don’t deny it.

    Assad has done it before and publicly made an agreement to cease manufacturing it. Apparently he went back on it. He actually uses chlorine gas regularly.

    And I am doing my best to post international, non-USA gov’t sources on this. No one here (and probably not that many people in the world in general) knows more about Assad than Juan Cole, who is a longstanding standing middle east scholar who has long been on the shit lists of various american administrations for undermining their public takes on things. No one knows Assad better, and he is using middle eastern sources to point to the attack being the Syrians.

    Assad is Hussein. There is nothing about him worth defending or admiring.

    #67546
    zn
    Moderator

    A lot here. Too much to post. Basically just a lot of details about Assad’s Syria and the complex civil war there.

    https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/01/syria-war-crisis-refugees-assad-dictatorship-arab-spring-intervention-russia/

    #67548
    wv
    Participant
    #67549
    wv
    Participant

    I’m sorry but that is just laughable imho. Asaad doesnt seem nearly that stupid to me.

    UN personnel already tested victims. Gas was used. Which is why the Russians don’t deny it.

    Assad has done it before and publicly made an agreement to cease manufacturing it. Apparently he went back on it. He actually uses chlorine gas regularly.

    And I am doing my best to post international, non-USA gov’t sources on this. No one here (and probably not that many people in the world in general) knows more about Assad than Juan Cole, who is a longstanding standing middle east scholar who has long been on the shit lists of various american administrations for undermining their public takes on things. No one knows Assad better, and he is using middle eastern sources to point to the attack being the Syrians.

    Assad is Hussein. There is nothing about him worth defending or admiring.

    ============
    Who has said there is anything worth admiring about Asaad??!
    Find someone who said ‘that’ ? Heck back in the day, Asaad was cooperating with the american terrorist group (CIA) for rendition, etc.

    And Juan Cole may be an ‘expert’ but he doesnt have any proof Asaad did this. Zero proof. Someone used some kind of gas. But we dont know who.

    And citing pro-American sites that dont know who used the gas — does not prove who used the gas.

    AND, there’s nothing worth admiring or defending about the CIA.

    #67550
    zn
    Moderator

    And Juan Cole may be an ‘expert’ but he doesnt have any proof Asaad did this. Zero proof. Someone used some kind of gas. But we dont know who.

    You do know, btw, that there was no PROOF Hussein did not have chemical and bio weapons. Just a string of logic making it highly unlikely in the extreme that he did. It is true that the UN inspectors could not know everything, it is true that he had them before, so until the USA occupied the country and could not put hands on them, it was impossible to make the turn into that kind of “proof.” Same with his presumed connections to Al Qaeda. No one could PROVE he had no connections. BUT. It just didn’t make any sense that he would, the evidence presented for it was highly questionable, and the logic just plain did not allow that conclusion—the logic of the evidence against it was too strong.

    I’m sorry this issue (of all issues) seems to bother you when we discuss it. (I sense you are angry.) But I see it this way—there is no choice (as I see it) in deciding for delivered sarin gas of all possible weapons to that place, and it is the guy who has used the same weapon before. This again is why the Russians don’t deny there were Syrian aircraft present at the time of the attack (they know that this can be and is monitored) and why they don’t deny there was gas used. They also know we know that Assad regularly uses chlorine gases in attacks, along with having used sarin before—to the point of publicly vowing not to do it again.

    And I am not even sure you can set off sarin by bombing stockpiles of it, the way the Russians claim. Let alone that al qaeda would have it (how?) and yet has never used it.

    The point about Cole is he draws from middle-eastern sources that include sources with people on the ground who could talk to witnesses and so on. (Witnesses count a lot in this.) That is as close as we can get to reading sources that are not simply repeating the views of the pentagon, the Russians, the Turks, and/or the Iranians.

    I have go with what my guts and instincts and sense of the information all tell me. I can’t set that stuff aside. I also don’t see the point in claiming Assad DIDN’T do it. It’s not like this one event is a tipping point of some kind, which changes the outcome. It’s just one sordid detail in a mixed up situation. I actually don’t understand all the energy involved (by commentators I mean) in trying to deny he did this—I am not sure what is gained by doing that.

    And there is a left commentary strand on this I just find completely baffling. Talking again about analysts and talking heads. There’s a strand on this that seems to me be wrong in key ways about a mixed up situation. It is the entire RT strand, which strikes me as being as bad in its own way as rightie conspiracy theorists. (That’s an honest gut reaction.) Just talking about a strand now. I didn’t get that feeling back in the days when we had to dig through so much to come up with valid info on sanctions and the run-up to the iraq war. I got the sense then of unity of purpose.

    You have to accept, without I hope being angry about it, that on this very minor issue, I can’t see my way to accepting the dissident commentator line on this…talking about the commentator line that questions whether it happened or who did it. That stuff gives me the same chill I got when I heard righties denying atrocities in Chile or El Salvador. Honest, it’s the same feeling. Whether you can agree with my view of this situation, please respect that feeling. I hate that feeling and as someone who tries to stay aware of events, I have had it far too often.

    What I said you defended about Assad is that he was too smart to do this. I disagree. I think he’s the power driven self-centered neo-con he appears to be and would do this in a hearbeat, particularly since basically he has Russian allies in country (including Russian planes that bomb hospitals) that make it impossible for external forces to topple him. No I don’t think he’s too smart to do it. I think he’s exactly the kind of guy who would do this. In fact I think he’s smart enough to know that basically, there are no consequences for it.

    And to turn the tables, who is defending the CIA?

    Fair enough?

    #67551
    zn
    Moderator

    Syria chemical attack: Sarin gas likely weapon used in Idlib as experts say Russian claims ‘don’t add up’
    Analysts say rebels lack money or expertise to stock deadly nerve agent

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/syria-chemical-attack-idlib-sarin-gas-toxic-khan-sheikhoun-russia-assad-claims-experts-evidence-a7668996.html

    Experts have dismissed Russia’s claim that a rebel chemical weapons facility caused the death of more than 70 people in Syria as evidence indicating the government’s use of a banned nerve agent mounts.

    Britain, the US and France are among the nations accusing Bashar al-Assad’s regime of gassing civilians in the opposition-held town of Khan Sheikhoun, but Damascus claims it destroyed its toxic stockpiles following an international agreement struck in 2013.

    The Russian defence ministry put out a competing version of events claiming that legitimate Syrian air strikes against “terrorists” had struck a warehouse used to produce and store shells containing toxic gas, which were allegedly being sent to Iraq.

    “From 11.30am to 12.30pm local time, [9.30am to 10.30am BST] Syrian aircraft conducted an air strike in the eastern outskirts of Khan Sheikhoun on a large warehouse of ammunition of terrorists and the mass of military equipment,” said Major General Igor Konashenkov, according to a translation by Russian state media.

    But witnesses and survivors said the bombs struck hours earlier, with images showing at least one hit a road rather than a building.

    Hasan Haj Ali, commander of the Free Idlib Army rebel group, called the Russian statement blaming the rebels a “lie” and said rebels did not have the capability to produce nerve gas.

    “Everyone saw the plane while it was bombing with gas,” he said.

    “Likewise, all the civilians in the area know that there are no military positions there, or places for the manufacture of weapons.”

    While Isis is known to have used mustard gas, the area around Khan Sheikhoun is controlled by a range of opposition factions including Islamists and groups linked to al-Qaeda.

    Russia accused fighters of deploying chlorine gas in Aleppo but no evidence to support the allegations has been put forward by international agencies, who believe that sarin was deployed in Tuesday’s attack.

    Beyza Unal, a research fellow with the International Security Department at Chatham House, said the banned nerve agent is expensive and difficult to purify and store.

    “Something that needs a certain level of expertise and also money,” she told The Independent, saying any facility would need the ability to take oxygen out of the area where sarin is stored.

    “I don’t think rebel groups would have the ability governments would have to purify nerve agents to a level that would make them stable,” Dr Unal added.

    “I don’t buy the Russian claims…the story doesn’t add up.”

    She added that images of bomb craters in Khan Sheikhoun indicated small payloads, rather than explosives of the type typically used to destroy an entire building.

    Sarin can be fatal when either inhaled or absorbed through the skin, contaminating water and clothing to affect anyone coming into contact with symptoms including blurred vision, choking, nausea, weakness, convulsions, paralysis and respiratory failure.

    Several volunteers who rushed to help victims of the initial bombing have themselves been taken ill, including Syrian Civil Defence members.

    Hamid Kutini, a volunteer with the White Helmets, told The Independent he and several of his friends are unwell.

    “I reached the area early after the attack and am still suffering now with weakness in my vision, a continuous headache, and I am not seeing colours well,” he said.

    Mr Kutini said families were asleep when the bombs struck at around 6.30am local time (4.30am BST), with people calling the White Helmets reporting “strange symptoms” including drowsiness.

    “We knew that some kind of poison gas was used,” he recalled. “The team found people fainting, and people with froth coming from the mouth, and shivers in their bodies…many died while they were asleep.”

    Graphic footage showed rescuers dragging bodies and survivors out of buildings, removing their clothes and hosing them down with water in attempts to remove the toxin.

    Doctors said victims started to choke, vomit and convulse with foam coming out of their mouths and pin-point pupils, showing symptoms of possible sarin gas exposure.

    Amnesty International said many of at least 20 children killed appeared to have died in their beds, with the lack of visible wounds on their corpses pointing to a chemical attack.

    A nurse working at the al-Rahma hospital, which was later bombed, told the charity he heard the bombs strike but with a dull “thump” that was unlike a normal “explosion sound”. Minutes later, the casualties started pouring in.

    The youngest victims were the first to succumb to respiratory failure and paralysis, a doctor said, adding: “Children are the first ones to die, they cannot fight this. We only had one child who, thank God, survived.”

    The World Health Organisation (WHO) said the symptoms were consistent with “exposure to organophosphorus chemicals, a category of chemicals that includes nerve agents” that are banned as weapons of mass destruction.

    Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) seconded the analysis, saying medical teams that treated affected patients in Bab al-Hawa found symptoms “consistent with exposure to a neurotoxic agent such as sarin gas”.

    Doctors also detected the smell of bleach on some victims, “suggesting they had been exposed to chlorine” as one of at least two different chemical agents.

    Hassan Elbahtimy, from the Centre for Science and Security Studies at King’s College London, said all evidence available so far pointed to the use of sarin in Khan Shaikhoun.

    “In this conflict, it is the regime that ultimately is more capable to mount chemical attacks,” he told The Independent, pointing to the previous sarin attack on Ghouta in 2013.

    “They were supposed to have declared all their chemical weapons, including sarin stocks, which got destroyed under international supervision.

    “If this turns out to be sarin and the regime is responsible, it means either they did not get rid of all their stocks or managed to reconstitute some of their production and handling capabilities.”

    Dr Elbahtimy said Khan Sheikhoun was a “significant” target for Assad’s forces as it borders a motorway connecting government-held cities with rebel strongholds in the north.

    The area saw intense fighting in 2016, with previous allegations of chlorine attacks levelled at the government.

    Ammar Abdullah, a citizen journalist, told The Independent he had seen chlorine gas before but it was “nothing like this”, adding that friends from Damascus compared the symptoms to those seen in the Ghouta attack.

    ..

    ADDED BY EDIT APRIL 17: JUST ANOTHER ARTICLE ON THIS I HAD.

    ..

    Syria chemical weapons attack toll rises to 70 as Russian narrative is dismissed
    Weapons expert says Russian claim that airstrike hit ‘terrorist warehouse’ in Idlib province is fanciful

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/04/syria-chemical-attack-idlib-province

    At least 70 people have been killed in northern Syria after being exposed to a toxic gas that survivors said was dropped from warplanes, an attack that sparked comparisons to the most infamous act of the country’s six-year war.

    At least another 100 people were being treated in hospitals in Idlib province where the strike took place at dawn on Tuesday. Several dozen others were transferred to Turkey, some in critical condition.

    Condemnation mounted throughout Tuesday as the US, Britain and EU blamed the Syrian government for the carnage, hours before the start of a donor conference on Syria in Brussels.

    Donald Trump denounced the carnage as a “heinous” act that “cannot be ignored by the civilised world”. But he also laid some of the responsibility on Barack Obama, saying in a statement that the attack was “a consequence of the past administration’s weakness and irresolution”.

    Theresa May said she was appalled by reports of the attack and called for an investigation by the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons. “I’m very clear that there can be no future for Assad in a stable Syria which is representative of all the Syrian people and I call on all the third parties involved to ensure that we have a transition away from Assad. We cannot allow this suffering to continue,” she said.

    UK-based monitoring group the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights put the latest death toll in Khan Sheikhoun at 72 by Wednesday morning, including 20 children.

    The Syrian military said it “categorically denied” responsibility. Russia, which has heavily backed the Syrian regime, said its planes were not operating near Idlib. Early on Wednesday, the Russian defence ministry claimed a Syrian airstrike had hit a “terrorist warehouse” containing an arsenal of “toxic substances” destined for fighters in Iraq. The ministry did not state if the attack was deliberate.

    Speaking on BBC Radio 4’s Today programme, Hamish de Bretton Gordon, director of Doctors Under Fire and former commanding officer of the UK Chemical, Biological, Radiological and Nuclear (CBRN) Regiment, said this claim was “completely untrue”.

    “No I think this [claim] is pretty fanciful, no doubt the Russians trying to protect their allies,” he said. “Axiomatically, if you blow up sarin, you destroy it.”

    “It’s very clear it’s a sarin attack,” he added. “The view that it’s an al-Qaida or rebel stockpile of sarin that’s been blown up in an explosion, I think is completely unsustainable and completely untrue.”

    Hours after the attack, a hospital treating the injured was also hit. Images taken inside the clinic appeared to depict the blast as it happened. Photographs and videos taken at the scene and in evacuation areas nearby showed rows of small, lifeless children, some with foam visible near their mouths.

    Save the Children said at least 11 children were among the casualties.

    Jerry Smith, the operations chief of the UN-led team that supervised the removal of Syria’s sarin stockpiles following the gas attack on the rebel-held Ghouta area of Damascus four years ago, said: “This absolutely reeks of 2013 all over again.” In that attack, more than 1,300 people were killed. The UN said the perpetrators probably had access to the stockpile of sarin held by the Syrian military at the time, as well as the expertise to use it.

    In the aftermath of the Ghouta massacre, a UN team supervised the surrender of Syria’s sarin supplies, the removal of which was supposed to have been completed early in 2014. However, suspicions have remained that a portion of the stockpile was not declared to inspectors.

    Tuesday’s attack struck Khan Sheikhun, where there are thousands of refugees from the nearby province of Hama who have fled recent fighting. The town is also on a crossroads between Hama and Idlib and is considered vital to any regime offensive towards the northern city of Idlib.

    “In this most recent attack, dozens of children suffocated to death while they slept,” said Ahmad Tarakji, the head of the Syrian American Medical Society (Sams), which supports hospitals in opposition-controlled areas in Syria. “This should strike at the very core of our humanity. How much longer will the world fail to respond to these heinous crimes?”

    Sams said its doctors had determined that the symptoms of the patients were consistent with exposure to organic phosphorus compounds such as the nerve agent sarin, which is banned by the chemical weapons convention.

    Smith said: “If you look at the footage itself, the victims don’t have any physical trauma injuries. There is foaming and pinpointed pupils, in particular. This appears to be some kind of organo-phosphate poison. In theory, a nerve agent. What is striking is that it would appear to be more than chlorine. The toxicity of chlorine does not lend itself to the sort of injuries and numbers that we have seen.”

    Tuesday’s strike came days after the US secretary of state, Rex Tillerson, said the Trump administration was no longer prioritising the removal of Assad, and that the Syrian people would ultimately decide his fate.

    The US ambassador to the UN, Nikki Haley, made similar comments on Monday, affirming a shift in US policy that began under the Obama administration.

    Critics of the stance have said that the absence of a credible threat has given the regime licence to commit war crimes with impunity as its backers, Iran and Russia, steadily claw back years of battlefield losses.

    The UN security council said it would hold an emergency meeting on Wednesday to discuss the attack, after a request from Britain and France.

    “Everyone is horrified and the children are in total shock,” said Mohammad Hassoun, a spokesman for civil defence rescue workers in the nearby town of Sarmin, which received 14 of the wounded from Tuesday’s attack. Hassoun said the victims were bleeding from the nose and mouth, had constricted irises and suffered from convulsions.

    “The total number of wounded is incredible. So far it’s over 200,” said Mohammad, a doctor at another hospital in Idlib. “We received over 20 victims and most of them are children, and two of them in the ICU are extremely critical. There are a lot of injured.” Mohammad said the victims he had seen were drifting in and out of consciousness. Many were on respirators.

    Few hospitals in Idlib have the capacity to deal with the symptoms of chemical attacks due to the repeated bombing of medical facilities by forces loyal to the government and lack sufficient oxygen tanks to treat victims.

    Idlib is one of the last bastions of rebel control in Syria, and has been subjected to a relentless campaign of aerial bombardment despite a supposed ceasefire brokered this year by Russia and Turkey that was aimed at paving the way for political negotiations.

    The raid in Khan Sheikhun indicates Assad’s growing confidence. He has wrested control of territory from the rebels, including the entire city of Aleppo, in recent months. His regime has benefited from the unflinching support of Moscow and Shia militias backed by Iran, as well as waning support for the opposition by its allies in the region and the new US administration.

    The attack will refocus attention on the failure of the international community to prevent the worst abuses in Syria’s war, and casts doubt on a signature achievement of Obama’s government, which negotiated the presumed destruction of Assad’s chemical arsenal in 2013.

    That deal followed the sarin gas attack on Ghouta, which nearly prompted a US intervention in the conflict. Since then, chemical attacks have continued on a smaller scale, mostly deploying chlorine gas, which was not covered by the deal because it has industrial uses.

    However, a similar devastating attack to the Idlib strike took place in east Hama last December, with at least 93 people dying and several hundred more being wounded after exposure to what local authorities described as a nerve agent. Western intelligence agencies believe sarin was used in that attack, but were unable to retrieve biological samples that could prove their fears.

    Smith said the recovery of samples would be pivotal to the investigation of the Idlib strike. “It is one of the most important things now to get biological samples, interviews and environmental samples, ideally from witnesses who can also give statements,” he said.

    • This reply was modified 7 years, 5 months ago by zn.
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