Jeff Fisher ?

I expected better. Fisher chose us instead of Miami. Then Miami did a bunch of stupid stuff. Now, I am not sure we would beat Miami. He will be here next year. Maybe everything will start working sometime?

I’m torn. I was thrilled with the Fisher hiring so perhaps that’s why I’m still hanging on to some sliver of hope. I can’t really justify it by the team’s performance on the field.

I’m disappointed in the defense – and Fisher hired Greg Williams to help him mold what most think is a talented young group.

I just wonder – do they have the personnel to run Williams schemes? Will Chris Long make a difference when he returns? Will Williams adjust to his personnel?

I was so pumped when they hired him. I was really looking forward to the rams becoming a solid team year in and year out. That hasn’t happened and I’m sick of his excuses. He’s sounding like Spags and we know how that ended up. That being said, i think Kroenke will keep him unfortunately.

There’s going to be all sorts of views of Fisher. I get them all, but I have a slightly different view. I think he’s the type who rebounds. He’s a rebounder. There are reboundings on the horizon.

I think averaging his win total gives a misleading picture.

His Titans teams peaked and valleyed–and it happens in clusters. Consecutive down years, consecutive up years. The issue then is what happened in the valley years. The way I see it, it actually works this way:

95-98: 31-33… avg. (less than)8-8

99-2003: 56-24…avg. (more than)11-5.

2004-6: 17-31 … avg. (less than) 6-10

2007-8: 23-9 …avg. (less than) 11-5

2009-10: 14-18 … avg. 7-9

So he took over a bad team, and had it winning after 4 years. It then had a 5 year streak where he had 56 wins and was in the post-season 4 times. It then fell apart with 3 years of 8-8 or worse. It then had a 2 year winning streak, including the playoffs with Kerry Collins at qb. Then a 2 year valley that was basically 7-9. Their record since he left (through 2013) is 22-26.

Other than taking over a bad team in 95, the best I can make out about the “8-8 or worse” seasons is that it’s personnel. Cap losses, injuries, etc.

I see this team has having HUGE execution issues. The way Cosell put this (I posted his audio) is that Williams is putting a lot on the defense in terms of reads and shifts and mental stuff, and the secondary is too young to handle it. If not for the HUGE mistakes–some caused by a first-time starter at qb (2 pick 6s in comeback situations)–this team would have a better record.

So I put it down to young players on defense in a new system (not new terminology, just a new way of playing the D) who can’t handle it yet.

There’s also some OL issues but this bunch knows how to work around those. They’ve done it before with a far WORSE OL than they have now. (2012, first 8 games: Hunter Ojinaka Turner Dahl Richardson, and every single one of those guys is now either on the bench or out of football…though with Dahl it’s injuries that drove him out).

Combine an inexperienced qb with an up/n/down OL and yet get a lot of streaks of shakey play. Combine THAT with the TEs and RBs not pass blocking, like in the SF game, and it’s even worse. That exact same group also has streaks where they excel, particularly in the 2-minute offense (Davis may be suited for that because he played a spread in college and the 2-minute hurry-up is more like that kind of offense–shotgun, etc.)

What we have on defense, IMO, is a “McDaniels” situation. Wms. overloaded the offense and it started out streaky and out of sync. But it DOES dominate for long stretches, which (to me) isn’t possible if it either lacked talent or coaching.

So I see Fisher bringing them out of this. At the LATEST, next year. Then if history holds, it will be a winning team for a few consecutive seasons.

Anyway, I think it’s misleading to average the W/Ls from Tenn.

…

Are people re-thinking Fisher a bit after a win?

Yeah what he said.

Just saw this thread.

Looking at this game, you have to give Fisher credit for what he does well.

First, he got the team ready to play competitively after horrible losses. Yes, he gets credit for that.

2nd, you have to give it to him for the stones needed to call that fake punt. Honestly. And it was the right time to call it. We weren’t winning that game after a punt.

But look at that last sentence: We weren’t winning that game after a punt! Everybody knew it, including the announcers.

Well, why is that?

Because, with all that talent, a defense that shut SEA down in the 1st half could NOT be trusted to hold a lead, to prevent scores on 4 consecutive drives, even when they had field position.

I wrote more about this in my own thread, so I won’t belabor it. But, in the 1st half, this Defense played well enough to win a lot of games. But there are 2 problems.

1. It took Fisher’s staff 11 games (5 in the season) to get to the point where they could look really good for 2 quarters against a good offense.

5. They promptly collapsed as usual in the 2nd half.

Guys, that ain’t good enough. It just isn’t. There are coaching staffs all over the league that could be a helluva lot more successful with the talent Fisher has at hand.

Now, ZN makes a point in this thread. He calls Fisher a “rebounder.” I think it’s pretty clear that there’s a lot of truth there. That is Fisher’s virtue as a coach, the ability to lead recoveries from failures.

But it’s also a weakness. I’ve said this before but I think it bears saying again.

To be competitive, A TEAM HAS TO DO A HELLUVA LOT BETTER FROM THE OFF!

Unlike other sports with long seasons, an NFL team has only 16 games to work with. A team can rarely afford to start out poorly. Go 1-4, as we did in the “easy” part of our schedule, and the odds of getting back over 500 and into playoff consideration are miniscule. It ain’t gonna work very damn often.

So, for me, Fisher’s apparent virtuous adjustments–e.g. cutting Ray Ray to FINALLY make a point about discipline!–are simply too little too late. His model of rebounding leads to a lot of moral victories and a lot of lost years.

And beyond that, I just do not see him doing what an NFL coach has to do to be successful more than once in a while. I do not see him forging a disciplined, focused, effectively intense squad that plays at and above its ceiling a lot. To me, the evidence of the season is that we have played several levels BELOW the ceiling of our very talented squad. We have been pissing away a year in which we have the talent to challenge, and we damn near pissed away another chance on Sunday.

I don’t simply say that I have no faith in Fisher IN SPITE of last Sunday. I say that I have no faith in him BECAUSE OF IT! Because he STILL cannot field a disciplined defense capable of defending a big lead and had to resort to STs miracles to eke one out.

Fisher is not good enough to coach these guys. I fervently wish we could get a real football coach for next year, but I understand that it won’t happen. He’s just good enough to get us another 6-7 win season and blow the draft position. Damn.

zn wrote:

What I found is that Fisher will have several consecutive losing/at best 8-8 seasons and then consecutive winning seasons.

Maybe it just takes him 4 years.

Should it? Maybe not.

If the result of this is several consecutive winning seasons?

I’ll take it.

Is that much of an argument? No. Not really. But I think we’re just different flavors when it comes to things like this, so, I am just getting in an ad for my flavor, is all.

Well, we have seen this differently most of the year. But, I have always wondered if the difference is in what we see or in the conclusions we draw.

Here, you are projecting a possible run of winning seasons in the 4th year. Would I be OK with that? Of course, I am always OK with the Rams doing well.

But, I see 2 big problems with your take.

1) Looking at the career as a whole, we can see patterns, but I see no compelling reason to assume that Year 4 would be any better than Year 3. Year 3 has shown us serious regression on defense, not progress. Past performance yields no clear indication of future achievement.

2) Suppose we do break through next year. That would not redeem THIS YEAR, which is clearly on track for failure to progress. The COST of this lousy start to the season is precisely … this season.

The only way one could argue that Year 4 success redeems Year 3 failure is if opportunities in Year 3 are not squandered and substantial weaknesses are improved on.

Consider ’98 v ’99. The offense in ’98 was not ready at all to make a big step. It had to be restocked with talent. ’99 happened because of major improvements in the OL, RB, QB, and OC.

What’s the case this year? Do we have the sort of fundamental weaknesses that we had in ’98? In my view, no. No way.

The offense IS building on last year to a remarkable degree, even with a lesser QB. We SHOULD BE better this year than last.

The problem is a defense that has regressed alarmingly. The talent is as good if not better than last year. But the unit is collapsing like a rotted out weather balloon.

Now, allowing your best team asset to regress while the other unit improves simply does not fit a narrative of improvement leading to a breakthrough a year later than one hoped. That is not what is happening.

This is a lost year because Fisher’s staff failed to prepare the team for the start of the season and allowed its best asset to collapse into ill discipline and ineptitude. The team is failing right now and has allowed itself to slide into a close to impossible situation. All with the best talent the team has had in decades.

It simply does not, in my view, fit your narrative. Maybe Fisher breaks through next year. Maybe he doesn’t.

But there is no earthly reason why we are not 4-2 right now, if not better. And whether or not we turn it around next year, we still had to live through another lost year of embarrassing failure. The 2014 season will forever remain on the record books, and in my view, it is a profligate waste of a golden opportunity.

In my view, this year’s failure is, in itself, unnecessary.

That’s on Fisher.

• This reply was modified 10 years ago by rfl.

I don;t see this situation as the staff failing to prepare the team for the start of the season.

I see a number of issues, and I don;t think any of them are coaching.

Injuries going back to the spring that kept the OL from cohering for a while. They just never played together.

A secondary that is just way too young.

Mistakes coming from pressing and a lack of confidence.

Adjusting to having to start the 3rd qb after giving the bulk of off-season prep to the 1st 2.

A defense that still looks a little lost with a new approach and new responsibilities. It reminds me of how the offense looked early in 2011 with McDaniels. Except I said then that they would eventually catch on and get it together with that offense, and I am still thinking that with this defense.

It could also be that Wms. is stuck with players he would never have picked, like Ogletree. That’s a possibility. Or…they straighten Ogletree out and I am wrong about the “would never have picked” thing.

I think this is a kind of mini-replay of 2011, except the injuries are nowhere near as extensive or serious, but they are the kinds of things that have a team scrambling to become stable (that’s supposed to sound paradoxical…scrambling to be stable).

The way I see it? This team dominates at times. If it were a more inherently stable team (and I think circumstances led to the instabilities) it would dominate more of the time. If it were a bad team OR a badly coached team, it would never dominate, whether for stretches or not.

I am mostly hunch-ifying. We do differ when it comes to what the major causes are, but I am kind of aware mine is a minority position. Most I suspect see it your way.

rfl wrote:

zn wrote:
The way I see it? This team dominates at times. If it were a more inherently stable team (and I think circumstances led to the instabilities) it would dominate more of the time. If it were a bad team OR a badly coached team, it would never dominate, whether for stretches or not.

This is exactly correct.

And that is precisely a definition of a poorly coached team. I think that, by consensus and across the spectrum of most sports, a team that is “inherently unstable” is understood to reflect poor coaching. Especially in American football, which is pre-eminently a coach’s sport.

So, I view your comment–with which I agree–as an indictment of Fisher and his staff.

One example. You mention ’11 and McDaniels. Well, that was a coaching disaster. McD. utterly failed to adapt to and coach that unit to its potential. And Spags hired him and let him run wild. It was precisely a coaching staff catastrophe.

Well, this year, Fisher hires a wild DC and lets him leaqd the league in blitzes while recording a league record for pass rush futility through 5 games … all with a superb DL. Insofar as this season is like ’11, it is a coaching failure.

ZN, you keep saying you see things differently. But your description of what is happening is pretty much what I see … except that you keep avoiding a harsh judgment of Fisher’s staff. Frankly, I don’t really get what you are trying to argue.

Let’s just hope they turn things around and we can all be happy.

I just see it so differently. I don’t think this is a poorly coached team. I think it’s a team with bad growing pains and confidence issues. I see execution issues, but it’s not like it’s a vet team that does all the wrong things…it’s a struggling to be consistent, younger team, and I put that on players. As I said, what I see on the defense is something I think I have seen before–in early 2011, for example, when the offense was out of sync and just not comfortable with what they were doing. I put that down to them not really having a handle on the McD offense. That’s what I see with the Wms defense.

The fact that Fisher keeps saying “you stay the course” meaning stressing the same things tells me (to my ears anyway) that players are having problems adapting and executing and you react to that by continuing to do what you are doing. One day that will even out.

I can’t imagine a team BOTH changing a coordinator and starting its 3rd qb and being seamless and smooth. Toss in the youngest secondary in the league. That’s a recipe for “a team that struggles out the gate.”

So I just see units struggling to adjust. To me that’s experience.

I don’t get down on coaches unless they’re guys like Linehan who clearly lost the team. Previous Fisher teams have long stretches where they are tops. Same with Wms defenses. So I look at execution above all. I also think everyone would look better if the team were winning, and I think they lost games because of multiple bad errors, and to me those errors go to execution.

I mean clearly you make good points in your as usual articulate way, but I am just into my own way of seeing it right now.

JackPMiller wrote:

I do not see improvement. You can try and blame it on injuries

I won’t blame it on injuries if you can name a team that won with injuries like this. So far that’s the #1 and #2 qb and 6 other regular starters. I will settle for 1 qb and 6 other starters.

If you can’t name a team that won with injuries like that, then, strongly consider the possibility that dismissing EXTENSIVE injuries as an explanation of a game like today is short-sighted and unrealistic.

Frankly guys, Fish is the coach until they have settled in LA. Just the way it is. The focus is going to be on the move starting in February. The coaches will remain in place for at least a season past the move.

Grits