Intelligence memo to Obama on the emails

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  • #45216
    Zooey
    Moderator

    Scott Ritter is among the signatories of this memo to President Obama. Interesting read. This is written by several former intelligence officers, and they state as fact that Clinton did commit a crime.

    *****
    http://www.commondreams.org/views/2016/05/24/intel-vets-urge-fast-report-clintons-emails

    Published on
    Tuesday, May 24, 2016
    by Common Dreams
    Intel Vets Urge Fast Report on Clinton’s Emails
    A group of U.S. intelligence veterans is calling on President Obama to expedite the FBI review of former Secretary of State Clinton’s alleged email security violations so the public can assess this issue in a timely fashion.
    by Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity

    MEMORANDUM FOR: The President

    FROM: Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity

    SUBJECT: Those “Damn Emails” – “Really a Concern”

    Introduction

    Last Wednesday Robert Gates, CIA Director under President Bush-41 and Defense Secretary under President Bush-43, publicly commented that Secretary Hillary Clinton’s “whole email thing … is really a concern in terms of her judgment,” adding, “I don’t know what originally prompted her to think that was a good idea.”

    What originally prompted her does not matter. As your Secretary of State and your subordinate, she willfully violated laws designed to protect classified information from unauthorized disclosure. It may be somewhat difficult for those not as immersed in national security matters as we have been to appreciate the seriousness of the offense, including the harm done in compromising some of the most sensitive U.S. programs and activities. This is why we write.

    Pundits and others are playing down the harm. A charitable interpretation is that they have no way to gauge what it means to expose so much to so many. We do know, and our overriding concern is to protect the national security of our country from further harm. It would be a huge help toward this end, if you would order Attorney General Loretta Lynch to instruct the FBI to stop slow-walking the email investigation and release its findings promptly.

    If you choose, instead, to give precedence to politics over national security, the American people will be deprived of timely appreciation of the gravity of the harm done; national security officials who do follow the rules will be scandalized; FBI investigators will conclude that that their job is more political than professional; and the noxious impression will grow that powerful people cannot be held accountable when they break the law. Worse: if the results of the FBI investigation remain under lock and key, dangerous pressures are likely to be exerted on the most senior U.S. officials by those who have the key – as we explain below.

    * * *

    We the undersigned Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS) have spent 400 years working with classified information – up to and including TOP SECRET, Codeword, and Special Access Programs (SAP). Given that experience, we believe that much of the commentary on the former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton email controversy has been misplaced, focusing on extraneous issues having little or nothing to do with the overriding imperative to protect classified information.

    As intelligence, military, and foreign service professionals, we are highly aware not only of that compelling need, but also of the accompanying necessity to hold accountable those whose actions compromise – whether for reasons of convenience or espionage – sensitive operations, programs and persons. In addition, we know that successful mutual cooperation with foreign intelligence services depends largely on what they see as our ability to keep secrets secret.

    Background

    Last August, Secretary Clinton handed over her private email server to the FBI, five months after she acknowledged she had used it for work-related emails as Secretary of State. She admitted to having deleted about 31,000 emails she described as personal. Media reports last fall, however, indicated that the FBI was able to recover the personal emails, and was reviewing them, as well as the 30,000 others she had described as work-related.

    In January, the Department of State announced that, of the 30,000 work-related emails, at least 1,340 contained classified material. The Department retroactively classified 22 of those TOP SECRET and prevented their release. Among the 22 were some that, according to media reports, included information on highly sensitive Special Access Programs (SAP).

    The White House has said it will do nothing to impede the FBI investigation and possible filing of charges against Clinton, if the facts should warrant that kind of action. Inasmuch as the outcome of the investigation is bound to have major political consequences, such White House assurances stretch credulity.

    By all indications, the FBI is slow-walking the investigation and mainstream media are soft-pedaling the issue. As things now stand, most Americans remain unaware of the import of this industrial-scale compromise of very sensitive national security information in Secretary Clinton’s emails.

    Our concern mounted in January when the Inspector General of the intelligence community wrote to the chairs of the congressional intelligence committees that he had received from one of the intelligence agencies two “sworn declarations” asserting that Secretary Clinton’s emails contained not only CONFIDENTIAL and SECRET information, but also information at the TOP SECRET/SAP level.

    In 2009, you signed an Executive Order regarding SAP (Special Access Programs), so we assume you were briefed on their extremely high sensitivity and the consequent need to sharply limit the number of people allowed to be “read-in” on them. The mishandling of SAP information can neutralize intelligence programs costing billions of dollars, wreck liaison relationships assiduously cultivated for decades, and get a lot of people killed.

    ‘It Wasn’t That Bad’

    All those directly or peripherally involved in the investigation of the Clinton email issue know very well that it could have a direct impact on who is likely to become the next President of the United States, and they will be making decisions with that reality in mind. They know that it is with you that “the buck stops,” and they are sensitive to signs of your preferences. Those were not difficult to discern in your commencement address at Howard University on May 7, in which you strongly advocated the same basic policy approaches as those espoused by one Democratic presidential candidate – Hillary Clinton.

    Your White House has also made excuses for deliberate security violations by Secretary Clinton that would have gotten senior officials like us fired and probably indicted. We look with suspicion at what we see as contrasting and totally inappropriate attempts by the administration and media to play down the importance of Secretary Clinton’s deliberate disregard of basic security instructions and procedures.

    It appears that the option chosen by the White House is using the declared need for “thoroughness” to soft-pedal and delay completion of the investigation for several more months, while the corporate media sleeps on. Four months have already gone by since the smoking-gun-type revelations in the intelligence community Inspector General’s letter to Congress, and it has been well over a year since Secretary Clinton first acknowledged using an insecure email server for official business.

    Another claim emanating from your White House is that Clinton was careless in managing her emails and has admitted as much, but that she has not damaged American national security. She has called it a “mistake,” but security officials of the National Security Agency explicitly forewarned her against violating basic laws and regulations designed to prevent the compromise of classified information.

    NSA, FBI Have Enough Evidence

    Surely, enough time has passed, and enough material has been reviewed, to permit a preliminary damage assessment. The NSA has the necessary information and should, by now, have shared that information with the FBI. Secretary Clinton’s server in her house in Chappaqua, New York, was not a secured device. Her email address incorporated her initials, “hdr” (apparently for her maiden name, Hillary Diane Rodham). It also included the “clinton” server identity, so it was easy for a hacker to spot.

    Anyone with the proper equipment, knowledge and motivation might have been able to obtain access. That is what hackers are able to do, with considerable success, against government servers that are far better protected than the private email server located in her New York State home.

    In fact, there have been reports that Secretary Clinton’s emails were, indeed, hacked successfully by foreigners. The Romanian hacker who goes by the name Guccifer claimed earlier this month that he had repeatedly hacked her email server. He described the server as “like an open orchid on the Internet” and that “it was easy … easy for me, for everybody.” Guccifer has been extradited from Romania and is now in jail in Alexandria, Virginia, where the FBI is said to be questioning him on the emails. There have also been credible claims that Russian intelligence and other foreign services were able to hack the Secretary’s server.

    Another argument being surfaced, in a transparent attempt to defend Secretary Clinton, has to do with intent. It is said that she did not intend to have classified information on her computer in New York and had no intention of handling secret material in a way that would be accessible to foreign intelligence or others lacking the proper security clearances and the need-to-know.

    But while intent might be relevant in terms of punishment, it does not change the fact that as a member of the Senate Armed Services Committee, then Senator Clinton had clearances for classified information for years before becoming Secretary of State. She knew the rules and yet as Secretary she handled classified information carelessly after a deliberate decision to circumvent normal procedures for its safeguarding, thus making it vulnerable to foreign intelligence, as well as to criminal hackers.

    Anyone who has ever handled classified material knows that there are a number of things that you do not do. You do not take it home with you, you do not copy it and share it with anyone who does not have a clearance and a need-to-know, you do not strip off the classification marks and treat it as unclassified, and you do not transfer it to another email account that is not protected by a government server.

    If you have a secured government computer operating off of a secure server that means that what is on the computer stays on the computer. This is not a matter of debate or subject to interpretation. It is how one safeguards classified information, even if one believes that the material should not be classified, which is another argument that has been made in Clinton’s defense. Whether or not the classification is unnecessary is not your decision to make.

    Apart from the guidelines for proper handling of classified information, outlined in Executive Order 13526 and 18 U.S.C Sec. 793(f) of the federal code, there is some evidence of a cover-up regarding what was compromised. This itself would be a violation of the 2009 Federal Records Act and the Freedom of Information Act.

    Numerous messages both in New York and in Washington have reportedly been erased or simply cannot be found. In addition, the law cited above explicitly makes it a felony to cut and paste classified information removing its classification designation. Retaining such information on a private email system is also a felony. In one of Secretary Clinton’s emails, she instructed her staff simply to remove a classification and send the information to her on her server.

    So the question is not whether Secretary Clinton broke the law. She did. If the laws are to be equally applied, she should face the same kind of consequences as others who have been found, often on the basis of much less convincing evidence, guilty of similar behavior.

    Some More Equal Than Others

    Secretary Clinton’ case invites comparison with what happened to former CIA case officer Jeffrey Sterling, now serving a three-and-a-half-year prison term for allegedly leaking information to New York Times journalist James Risen. Sterling first came to the media’s attention when in 2003 he blew the whistle on a botched CIA operation called Operation Merlin, telling the Senate Intelligence Committee staff that the operation had ended up revealing nuclear secrets to Iran. When in 2006 James Risen published a book that discussed, inter alia, this amateurish cowboy operation, the Department of Justice focused on Sterling as the suspected source.

    In court, the federal prosecutors relied almost entirely on Risen’s phone and email logs, which reportedly demonstrated that the two men had been in contact up until 2005. But the prosecutors did not provide the content of those communications even though the FBI was listening in on some of them. Risen has claimed that he had multiple sources on Operation Merlin, and Sterling has always denied being involved.

    Jeffrey Sterling was not permitted to testify in the trial on his own behalf because he would have had to discuss Operation Merlin, which was and is still classified. He could not mention any details about it even if they were already publicly known through the Risen book. No evidence was ever produced in court demonstrating that any classified information ever passed between the two men, but Sterling, an African American, was nevertheless convicted by an all-white jury in Virginia based on “suspicion” and the presumption that “it had to be him.”

    The contrast between the copious evidence – some of it self-admitted – of Secretary Clinton’s demonstrable infractions, on the one hand, and the very sketchy, circumstantial evidence used to convict and imprison Jeffrey Sterling, on the other, lend weight to the suspicion that there is one law for the rich and powerful in the United States and another for the rest of us.

    Failing to take steps against a politically powerful presidential candidate and letting her off unscathed for crimes of her own making, while an institutionally unprotected Jeffrey Sterling sits in prison would be a travesty of justice not dissimilar to the gentle wrist-slap given Gen. David Petraeus for giving his mistress extremely sensitive information and then lying to the FBI about it.

    Your order to then-Attorney General Eric Holder to let Gen. David Petraeus off easy created a noxious – and demoralizing – precedent in the national security community indicating that, whatever the pains taken at lower levels to prevent compromise of duly classified information, top officials are almost never held accountable for disregarding well-established rules. These are some of the reasons we are so concerned that this is precisely the direction in which you seem to be leaning on the Clinton email issue.

    In our view, the sole legitimate reason for disclosing classified information springs from the only “oath” we all took – “to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic.” When, for example, Edward Snowden saw the U.S. government grossly violating our Fourth Amendment right to be “secure” against warrantless “searches and seizures,” he gave more weight to that oath (ethicists call it a supervening value) than to the promise he had made not to disclose information that could harm U.S. national security.

    Possibly Still Worse Ahead

    You might give some thought, Mr. President, to a potentially messy side of this. What is already known about NSA’s collect-it-all electronic practices over the past several years strongly suggests that NSA, and perhaps the FBI, already know chapter and verse. It is virtually certain they know what was in Secretary Clinton’s emails – including the ones she thought she had deleted. It is likely that they have also been able to determine which foreign intelligence agencies and other hackers were able to access the emails.

    One ignores this at one’s peril. Secretary Clinton’s security violations can have impact not only on whether she becomes your successor, but also on whether she would, in that case, be beholden to those who know what lies hidden from the rest of us – perhaps even from you.

    Intelligence professionals (in contrast to the occasional political functionary) take the compromise of classified information with utmost seriousness. More important: this is for us a quintessentially nonpartisan issue. It has to do, first and foremost, with the national security of the United States.

    We are all too familiar with what harm can come from blithe disregard of basic procedures designed to protect sensitive intelligence and other national security information. Yes, the lamentable unevenness in how such infractions are handled is also an important issue – but that is not our main focus in the present context.

    The Truth Will Out

    Not all workers at the NSA or the FBI are likely to keep their heads in the sand, as they watch very senior officials and politicians with their own agendas disregard laws to safeguard the nation’s security. We know what it is like to do the difficult, disciplined work of protecting information from being compromised by strictly abiding by what often seem to be cumbersome rules and regulations. We’ve been there; done that.

    If you encourage the Department of Justice and the FBI to continue slow-walking the investigation, there is a good chance the truth will come out anyway. As you are aware, the Justice Department, the FBI, and NSA have all yielded recent patriots who, in such circumstances, decided that whistleblowing – rather than silence – was the only way to honor the oath we all swore – to support and defend the Constitution.

    To sum up our concern regarding how all this plays out, if you order the Justice Department and FBI to pursue the investigation with “all deliberate speed,” so to speak, and Secretary Clinton becomes president, the juicy email secrets in the hidden hands of the NSA and FBI are likely to give those already powerful institutions a capacity for blackmail that would make J. Edgar Hoover’s mouth water. In addition, information hacked by foreign intelligence services or Guccifer-like hackers can also provide useful grist for leverage or blackmail.

    Taking Care the Laws Are Faithfully Executed

    We strongly urge you to order Attorney General Loretta Lynch to instruct FBI Director James Comey to wind up a preliminary investigation and tell the country now what they have learned. By now they – and U.S. intelligence agencies – have had enough time to do an early assessment of what classified data, programs and people have been compromised. Realistically speaking, a lengthier, comprehensive post-mortem-type evaluation – however interesting it might be, might never see the light of day under a new president.

    We believe the American people are entitled to prompt and full disclosure, and respectfully suggest that you ensure that enforcement of laws protecting our national security does not play stepchild to political considerations on this key issue.

    On April 10, you assured Chris Wallace, “I guarantee that there is no political influence in any investigation conducted by the Justice Department, or the FBI – not just in this [Clinton email] case, but in any case. Full stop. Period.”

    We urge you to abide by that promise, and let the chips fall where they may. Full stop. Period.

    For the Steering Group, Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS)

    William Binney, Technical Director, NSA; co-founder, SIGINT Automation Research Center (ret.)

    Thomas Drake, Senior Executive, NSA (former)

    Philip Giraldi, CIA, Operations Officer (ret.)

    Former Sen. Mike Gravel, D, Alaska; earlier, Adjutant, top secret control officer, Communications Intelligence Service, special agent the Counter Intelligence Corps.

    Matthew Hoh, former Capt., USMC, Iraq & Foreign Service Officer, Afghanistan (associate VIPS)

    Larry C. Johnson, CIA & State Department (ret.)

    Michael S. Kearns, Captain, USAF Intelligence Agency (ret.), ex-Master SERE Instructor

    John Kiriakou, Former CIA Counterterrorism Officer

    Ray McGovern, former US Army infantry/intelligence officer & CIA analyst (ret.)

    Elizabeth Murray, Deputy National Intelligence Officer for Middle East, CIA (ret.)

    Todd Pierce, MAJ, US Army Judge Advocate (ret.)

    Scott Ritter, former MAJ, USMC, former UN Weapon Inspector, Iraq

    Diane Roark, DOE, DOD, NSC, & professional staff, House Intelligence Committee (ret.)

    Robert David Steele, former CIA Operations Officer

    Peter Van Buren, U.S. Department of State, Foreign Service Officer (ret.) (associate VIPS)

    Kirk Wiebe, former Senior Analyst, SIGINT Automation Research Center, NSA, (ret.)

    Ann Wright, U.S. Army Reserve Colonel (ret) and former U.S. Diplomat

    This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 License

    Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS) is a group of current and former officials of the United States Intelligence Community, including some from the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), the U.S. State Department’s Intelligence Bureau (INR), and the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA). It was formed in January 2003 as a “coast-to-coast enterprise” to protest the use of faulty intelligence “upon which the US/UK invasion of Iraq was based.” The group issued a letter before the 2003 invasion of Iraq stating that intelligence analysts were not being listened to by policy makers.

    #45219
    bnw
    Blocked

    I already stated as fact she committed multiple crimes regarding the emails. Anyone and I mean ANYONE who works with classified information in the federal government knows that. Anyone that works in the federal government also knows all government business records are subject to the Federal Records Act. She knew exactly what she was doing. The real question is WHY she did it and what was in the 30,000 emails she had wiped from the server? The crimes are so blatant and indisputable you have to wonder if she was promised a get out of jail free card.

    Absolutely none of this is high tech. I see that being dragged out as an excuse frequently. Government business has to be conducted over government servers. That means the email address will have .gov at the end. Everyone receiving her emails from her private server in the bathroom could plainly see from her email address that she was not in compliance with the law.

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #45223
    wv
    Participant

    You know, I know zip on this ’email scandal’ thing. Zero. Nada.
    I havent read a single solitary word about it.
    And i don’t intend to.

    I couldn’t care less whether she “committed a crime” or not
    by sending or receiving “classified” emails.

    I mean to me, the CIA in and of itself is a Crime. The whole entire organization has a long history of assassination, torture, butchery spying on pacifists, derailing democracies, dealing in narcotics…etc, etc, etc. And the FBI aint no better. Or the NSA. All those secret shadow organizations are anti-democratic and rife with corruption.

    I dont care what Clinton did with some emails. What Clinton has done that is perfectly LEGAL is what appalls me. Her support of the mega-corpse, neoliberalsim, the big-banks, goldman-sachs…etc. All THAT stuff is enough for me to loathe her. And Obama. And Bush. And all the mainstream Dems and Reps.

    I could go on. But i have to plant some milkweed seeds.

    wv curmudgeon

    #45230
    Zooey
    Moderator

    You know, I know zip on this ’email scandal’ thing. Zero. Nada.
    I havent read a single solitary word about it.
    And i don’t intend to.

    I couldn’t care less whether she “committed a crime” or not
    by sending or receiving “classified” emails.

    I mean to me, the CIA in and of itself is a Crime. The whole entire organization has a long history of assassination, torture, butchery spying on pacifists, derailing democracies, dealing in narcotics…etc, etc, etc. And the FBI aint no better. Or the NSA. All those secret shadow organizations are anti-democratic and rife with corruption.

    I dont care what Clinton did with some emails. What Clinton has done that is perfectly LEGAL is what appalls me. Her support of the mega-corpse, neoliberalsim, the big-banks, goldman-sachs…etc. All THAT stuff is enough for me to loathe her. And Obama. And Bush. And all the mainstream Dems and Reps.

    I could go on. But i have to plant some milkweed seeds.

    wv curmudgeon

    I haven’t read much about it until I found this. I knew she had used a private server, and that she deleted 30,000 personal emails, but that’s it.

    And I don’t really care about the email issue either because whatever she did is nothing compared to what she plans to do if she is president both domestically and internationally. You know…invading Libya and Iraq is a smidge worse than mishandling classified documents (though she could potentially be blackmailed by nasty people).

    The reason I care about the above is that it shows a lot of high up establishment intelligence people are telling Obama that this is really, really bad news, and postponing it, or trying to sweep it under the carpet, could be devastating to her, the party, and the country. To me that means that this scandal is a real scandal – as opposed to so many Clinton scandals over the decades – and I would like to see her destroyed politically. Prison time would be a bonus. And the sooner, the better. That’s why I had interest in it.

    #45231
    bnw
    Blocked

    Do you guys realize that Obama knew she was using the private email server? No way he couldn’t know.

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #45233
    Zooey
    Moderator

    Do you guys realize that Obama knew she was using the private email server? No way he couldn’t know.

    I haven’t read that anywhere. It wouldn’t surprise me, but it wouldn’t surprise me if he didn’t know, either.

    #45237
    wv
    Participant

    I don’t think the emails would be a ‘blackmail problem’ coz
    if she’s president she will just have the blackmailers
    Droned to death.

    Hillary knows how to make ‘hard choices’ you know.

    w
    v
    ===
    June 1, 2016
    Hillary’s Role in Honduran Coup Sunk US Relations With Latin America to a New Low

    Hillary’s Role in Honduran Coup Sunk US Relations With Latin America to a New Low

    by Dan Beeton – Ming Chun Tang

    …. In the years since the 2009 coup in Honduras, there has been remarkably little scrutiny in the major media of how Clinton’s State Department handled it, and she has had to answer few questions about it.

    But Juan González asked why she resisted cutting off aid to the coup regime and instead brokered a deal for new elections. Clinton controversially doubled down on defending the coup, outrageously suggesting that the oligarchs and generals who had forced President Manuel Zelaya out had a legal justification. Worse, she suggested that Honduras emulate Plan Colombia: the U.S.-funded war on drugs and guerrillas that sparked the biggest internal refugee crisis in the world outside of Syria, involved the deliberate killing of thousands of innocent civilians by Colombian armed forces, and fostered death squads now poised to stick around even as the country nears an end to its civil war.

    Honduras also pops up in Clinton’s memoir, “Hard Choices.” The paperback edition, published shortly after she launched

    #45437
    Eternal Ramnation
    Participant

    The real crime is Clinton Foundation Donors including despots dictators and psychopaths getting sweet arms contracts including biological weapons from Hillary’s State Dept. after making huge donations to the Foundation which all signs point to being a money laundering scheme. Personal emails were not about yoga, does she look like she’s been doing yoga ?

    #45438
    bnw
    Blocked

    The real crime is Clinton Foundation Donors including despots dictators and psychopaths getting sweet arms contracts including biological weapons from Hillary’s State Dept. after making huge donations to the Foundation which all signs point to being a money laundering scheme. Personal emails were not about yoga, does she look like she’s been doing yoga ?

    Yes selling influence is in the Clinton Syndicate’s DNA. Pay Bill and Hill millions to give a few speeches. Pay the Clinton Foundation to get the Sec. of State Hill to shill your case to Obama. Makes that 2008 primary pow wow deal for Hill to drop out of the race come into complete focus. Yet so many still can’t see. What Bill did for China as president, Hill did for all the world that came bearing cash to pay to play.

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #45444
    wv
    Participant

    The real crime is Clinton Foundation Donors including despots dictators and psychopaths getting sweet arms contracts including biological weapons from Hillary’s State Dept. after making huge donations to the Foundation which all signs point to being a money laundering scheme. Personal emails were not about yoga, does she look like she’s been doing yoga ?

    Yes selling influence is in the Clinton Syndicate’s DNA. Pay Bill and Hill millions to give a few speeches. Pay the Clinton Foundation to get the Sec. of State Hill to shill your case to Obama. Makes that 2008 primary pow wow deal for Hill to drop out of the race come into complete focus. Yet so many still can’t see. What Bill did for China as president, Hill did for all the world that came bearing cash to pay to play.

    ——————
    What i dont get about you, is this — you can see perfectly well how corrupt Clinton is, but what about Bush, Obama, Nixon, Reagan — they’ve all been corrupt as hell, in the sense of selling influence in return for campaign-support. All of em.

    Do you agree? No?

    It aint just Hillary. Its all of em. Well, except for a very
    few.

    w
    v

    #45454
    zn
    Moderator

    The real crime is Clinton Foundation Donors including despots dictators and psychopaths getting sweet arms contracts including biological weapons from Hillary’s State Dept. after making huge donations to the Foundation which all signs point to being a money laundering scheme. Personal emails were not about yoga, does she look like she’s been doing yoga ?

    Yes selling influence is in the Clinton Syndicate’s DNA. Pay Bill and Hill millions to give a few speeches. Pay the Clinton Foundation to get the Sec. of State Hill to shill your case to Obama. Makes that 2008 primary pow wow deal for Hill to drop out of the race come into complete focus. Yet so many still can’t see. What Bill did for China as president, Hill did for all the world that came bearing cash to pay to play.

    ——————
    What i dont get about you, is this — you can see perfectly well how corrupt Clinton is, but what about Bush, Obama, Nixon, Reagan — they’ve all been corrupt as hell, in the sense of selling influence in return for campaign-support. All of em.

    Do you agree? No?

    It aint just Hillary. Its all of em. Well, except for a very
    few.

    w
    v

    Well speaking from the outside…it;s the same ole same ole political board syndrome that shows up a bit in these discussions.

    The left critiques both parties.

    The more partisan types? They get selective. Blind eye to their side.

    Party-firsters.

    It takes a while sometimes to explain to the righties that lefties are not dems. Let alone republicans.

    Righties meanwhile are always partisan republicans. And, act partisan.

    #45466
    bnw
    Blocked

    The real crime is Clinton Foundation Donors including despots dictators and psychopaths getting sweet arms contracts including biological weapons from Hillary’s State Dept. after making huge donations to the Foundation which all signs point to being a money laundering scheme. Personal emails were not about yoga, does she look like she’s been doing yoga ?

    Yes selling influence is in the Clinton Syndicate’s DNA. Pay Bill and Hill millions to give a few speeches. Pay the Clinton Foundation to get the Sec. of State Hill to shill your case to Obama. Makes that 2008 primary pow wow deal for Hill to drop out of the race come into complete focus. Yet so many still can’t see. What Bill did for China as president, Hill did for all the world that came bearing cash to pay to play.

    ——————
    What i dont get about you, is this — you can see perfectly well how corrupt Clinton is, but what about Bush, Obama, Nixon, Reagan — they’ve all been corrupt as hell, in the sense of selling influence in return for campaign-support. All of em.

    Do you agree? No?

    It aint just Hillary. Its all of em. Well, except for a very
    few.

    w
    v

    Oh hell no. No sir. The difference is in the degree, in what is for sale. Bill and Hill are so very different. We’re not talking about mere ambassadorships, sweet hart deals and the like. All presidents do that. From their Arkansas days the Clintons have been very different. From never once losing in cattle futures in order to pad their salary to using state troopers to threaten and harass Bill’s rape victims. In the White House starting with the “you get two for one” nonsense to the selling the Chinese military technology and unbelievable access to national laboratories. Then after leaving office the reverse carpet bagging to New York so Hill can be a US senator! Can’t leave Bill around with nothing to do so voila! Clinton Foundation! Talk up Hill as a future president and rake in donations to the Clinton Foundation where the pay to play is sure to get you President Hill’s ear and paying Bill millions in speaking fees will do the same. Make the deal with Obama to claim Hill’s relevancy for the next presidency by making Hill Sec. of State, the time honored stepping stone to the presidency. This of course maintains the function of the Clinton Foundation to sell influx with a future president Hill and to maintain millions in speaking fees for Bill. Prove yourself to be a most ineffectual Sec. of State in all matters except actively working to invade nation after nation. Resign as Sec. of State to campaign for years for the presidency actively selling influence while co-opting the entire democrat party apparatus to the extent that no one other than O’Malley would challenge her in the primary and an oldster socialist was allowed to share the otherwise empty stage. Hill will win the primary despite her monotonous droning on and on and her not hiding her being uncomfortable with the great unwashed simply because she owns the super delegates. Otherwise an old socialist beats her for the nomination. We wait to see if justice ever catches up with Clinton Inc.

    • This reply was modified 8 years, 3 months ago by bnw.

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #45472
    bnw
    Blocked

    The real crime is Clinton Foundation Donors including despots dictators and psychopaths getting sweet arms contracts including biological weapons from Hillary’s State Dept. after making huge donations to the Foundation which all signs point to being a money laundering scheme. Personal emails were not about yoga, does she look like she’s been doing yoga ?

    Yes selling influence is in the Clinton Syndicate’s DNA. Pay Bill and Hill millions to give a few speeches. Pay the Clinton Foundation to get the Sec. of State Hill to shill your case to Obama. Makes that 2008 primary pow wow deal for Hill to drop out of the race come into complete focus. Yet so many still can’t see. What Bill did for China as president, Hill did for all the world that came bearing cash to pay to play.

    ——————
    What i dont get about you, is this — you can see perfectly well how corrupt Clinton is, but what about Bush, Obama, Nixon, Reagan — they’ve all been corrupt as hell, in the sense of selling influence in return for campaign-support. All of em.

    Do you agree? No?

    It aint just Hillary. Its all of em. Well, except for a very
    few.

    w
    v

    Well speaking from the outside…it;s the same ole same ole political board syndrome that shows up a bit in these discussions.

    The left critiques both parties.

    The more partisan types? They get selective. Blind eye to their side.

    Party-firsters.

    It takes a while sometimes to explain to the righties that lefties are not dems. Let alone republicans.

    Righties meanwhile are always partisan republicans. And, act partisan.

    I’m generally a conservative leaning independent with libertarian sensibility. Only republican I could ever vote for was Ron Paul or perhaps Rand Paul. Until now. I’ll gladly vote for Trump.

    Did you really say “the left critiques both parties”? Too fucking funny. Honestly thats pee the pants funny.

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #45476
    zn
    Moderator

    Did you really say “the left critiques both parties”? Too fucking funny. Honestly thats pee the pants funny.

    Well, see, my guess is, you think dems are “the left.” Which is a typical mistake in narrow-band america. (Not in the rest of the world.) That’s a typical mainstream trap some get caught in.

    The left is invisible in the USA, they don’t HAVE a major party, but it exists. And they are not dems.

    Read the people you’re posting with. Sooner or later, it will become clear.

    Most of us here are not dems, and this goes way way back. As I said lefties don’t have a major party in the USA and as I said yes we critique both. This goes way back. For years and years. Here on this board, most of the core participants have known one another more than 15 years. When I say the lefties on this board critique both parties, I know whereof I speak. Have an open mind and follow the discussion. Don’t be so quick to dismiss what frankly you don’t know yet.

    #45477
    Ozoneranger
    Participant

    You know, I know zip on this ’email scandal’ thing. Zero. Nada.
    I havent read a single solitary word about it.
    And i don’t intend to.

    I couldn’t care less whether she “committed a crime” or not
    by sending or receiving “classified” emails.

    I mean to me, the CIA in and of itself is a Crime. The whole entire organization has a long history of assassination, torture, butchery spying on pacifists, derailing democracies, dealing in narcotics…etc, etc, etc. And the FBI aint no better. Or the NSA. All those secret shadow organizations are anti-democratic and rife with corruption.

    I dont care what Clinton did with some emails. What Clinton has done that is perfectly LEGAL is what appalls me. Her support of the mega-corpse, neoliberalsim, the big-banks, goldman-sachs…etc. All THAT stuff is enough for me to loathe her. And Obama. And Bush. And all the mainstream Dems and Reps.

    I could go on. But i have to plant some milkweed seeds.

    wv curmudgeon

    I haven’t read much about it until I found this. I knew she had used a private server, and that she deleted 30,000 personal emails, but that’s it.

    And I don’t really care about the email issue either because whatever she did is nothing compared to what she plans to do if she is president both domestically and internationally. You know…invading Libya and Iraq is a smidge worse than mishandling classified documents (though she could potentially be blackmailed by nasty people).

    The reason I care about the above is that it shows a lot of high up establishment intelligence people are telling Obama that this is really, really bad news, and postponing it, or trying to sweep it under the carpet, could be devastating to her, the party, and the country. To me that means that this scandal is a real scandal – as opposed to so many Clinton scandals over the decades – and I would like to see her destroyed politically. Prison time would be a bonus. And the sooner, the better. That’s why I had interest in it.

    I’m a hardware engineer. Part of my job is email admin- I build these machines and configure the client and setup the end users. I can tell you what she did was egregious and illegal. Also, pretty ignorant with a lot of arrogance mixed in. The only reason I can see in maintaining private server is to hide shit. To assume she could do this with no repercussions was arrogant. To assume the box couldn’t be hacked is ignorant. And most likely our adversaries were reading her mail. Also, email is forever. There’s a copy around somewhere, even if she did a DOD format on the drives (it would be at least two).

    The part of this I just don’t understand is “why”? Most government – State, Mil, etc- systems are more secure- by light years- than anything a private firm could put together on the fly, which this appears to be. And she used Clinton in the domain name. She could have just used her State account for both personal and private stuff and nobody would be the wiser, and it would have been way more secure. Probably would have violated the user policy in place, but most folks up that high don’t bother with such things.

    I’ve had clients who wanted me to do really stupid shit before, but this takes the cake. Arrogance and ignorance. I could cost lives, too.

    #45478
    bnw
    Blocked

    You know, I know zip on this ’email scandal’ thing. Zero. Nada.
    I havent read a single solitary word about it.
    And i don’t intend to.

    I couldn’t care less whether she “committed a crime” or not
    by sending or receiving “classified” emails.

    I mean to me, the CIA in and of itself is a Crime. The whole entire organization has a long history of assassination, torture, butchery spying on pacifists, derailing democracies, dealing in narcotics…etc, etc, etc. And the FBI aint no better. Or the NSA. All those secret shadow organizations are anti-democratic and rife with corruption.

    I dont care what Clinton did with some emails. What Clinton has done that is perfectly LEGAL is what appalls me. Her support of the mega-corpse, neoliberalsim, the big-banks, goldman-sachs…etc. All THAT stuff is enough for me to loathe her. And Obama. And Bush. And all the mainstream Dems and Reps.

    I could go on. But i have to plant some milkweed seeds.

    wv curmudgeon

    I haven’t read much about it until I found this. I knew she had used a private server, and that she deleted 30,000 personal emails, but that’s it.

    And I don’t really care about the email issue either because whatever she did is nothing compared to what she plans to do if she is president both domestically and internationally. You know…invading Libya and Iraq is a smidge worse than mishandling classified documents (though she could potentially be blackmailed by nasty people).

    The reason I care about the above is that it shows a lot of high up establishment intelligence people are telling Obama that this is really, really bad news, and postponing it, or trying to sweep it under the carpet, could be devastating to her, the party, and the country. To me that means that this scandal is a real scandal – as opposed to so many Clinton scandals over the decades – and I would like to see her destroyed politically. Prison time would be a bonus. And the sooner, the better. That’s why I had interest in it.

    I’m a hardware engineer. Part of my job is email admin- I build these machines and configure the client and setup the end users. I can tell you what she did was egregious and illegal. Also, pretty ignorant with a lot of arrogance mixed in. The only reason I can see in maintaining private server is to hide shit. To assume she could do this with no repercussions was arrogant. To assume the box couldn’t be hacked is ignorant. And most likely our adversaries were reading her mail. Also, email is forever. There’s a copy around somewhere, even if she did a DOD format on the drives (it would be at least two).

    The part of this I just don’t understand is “why”? Most government – State, Mil, etc- systems are more secure- by light years- than anything a private firm could put together on the fly, which this appears to be. And she used Clinton in the domain name. She could have just used her State account for both personal and private stuff and nobody would be the wiser, and it would have been way more secure. Probably would have violated the user policy in place, but most folks up that high don’t bother with such things.

    I’ve had clients who wanted me to do really stupid shit before, but this takes the cake. Arrogance and ignorance. I could cost lives, too.

    That “to hide shit” is what makes the most sense. Government servers are easy to comply with the Federal Records Act.

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #45480
    bnw
    Blocked

    Did you really say “the left critiques both parties”? Too fucking funny. Honestly thats pee the pants funny.

    Well, see, my guess is, you think dems are “the left.” Which is a typical mistake in narrow-band america. (Not in the rest of the world.) That’s a typical mainstream trap some get caught in.

    The left is invisible in the USA, they don’t HAVE a major party, but it exists. And they are not dems.

    Read the people you’re posting with. Sooner or later, it will become clear.

    Most of us here are not dems, and this goes way way back. As I said lefties don’t have a major party in the USA and as I said yes we critique both. This goes way back. For years and years. Here on this board, most of the core participants have known one another more than 15 years. When I say the lefties on this board critique both parties, I know whereof I speak. Have an open mind and follow the discussion. Don’t be so quick to dismiss what frankly you don’t know yet.

    BS and you know it. There are smaller leftist parties to the left of the democrat party leadership but they remain insignificant. However the democrat party is left as in its voters are left of its leadership and these voters have the numbers to elect candidates throughout the nation at the state and national level. The Bernie phenomenon shows this well. (The same thing Trump has shown within the republican party from the other end of the political spectrum.) Why its voters continue to vote for leadership that throws them a social issue bone once in a while to chew on but screws them over on jobs and purchasing power while fostering dreater dependence only democrat voters can answer. that. I suspect most don’t look past the (D) behind the candidates name.

    • This reply was modified 8 years, 3 months ago by bnw.

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #45503
    zn
    Moderator

    Did you really say “the left critiques both parties”? Too fucking funny. Honestly thats pee the pants funny.

    Well, see, my guess is, you think dems are “the left.” Which is a typical mistake in narrow-band america. (Not in the rest of the world.) That’s a typical mainstream trap some get caught in.

    The left is invisible in the USA, they don’t HAVE a major party, but it exists. And they are not dems.

    Read the people you’re posting with. Sooner or later, it will become clear.

    Most of us here are not dems, and this goes way way back. As I said lefties don’t have a major party in the USA and as I said yes we critique both. This goes way back. For years and years. Here on this board, most of the core participants have known one another more than 15 years. When I say the lefties on this board critique both parties, I know whereof I speak. Have an open mind and follow the discussion. Don’t be so quick to dismiss what frankly you don’t know yet.

    BS and you know it. There are smaller leftist parties to the left of the democrat party leadership but they remain insignificant. However the democrat party is left as in its voters are left of its leadership and these voters have the numbers to elect candidates throughout the nation at the state and national level. The Bernie phenomenon shows this well. (The same thing Trump has shown within the republican party from the other end of the political spectrum.) Why its voters continue to vote for leadership that throws them a social issue bone once in a while to chew on but screws them over on jobs and purchasing power while fostering dreater dependence only democrat voters can answer. that. I suspect most don’t look past the (D) behind the candidates name.

    Yeah I said major party and I meant it. I was referring to the dominance of the republocrats and demicans. Look back at me on this board discussing the greens. I know about the small parties…they’re not major. Hence, no major parties. That was the whole point.

    One tenet of actual leftists, speaking for ourselves instead of being described by an outsider, is that to us, there is nothing “left” about the democratic party. Hear that, and you will begin to have a better understanding of the people you’re posting with. In europe the american dems would basically be right-wing moderates. That’s how I see them. They are as a rule better on social issues than the right, which is frankly (in my eyes) still stuck in the late 19th century, but that’s about it.

    As for the rest of your things…even though it’s supposed to have this “listen up here’s the truth” tone to it…I still just see it as one narrow perspective among others. It’s also an invitation to debate, but, for me personally, I am just not engaged enough. I am pretty sporadic about that kind of thing. Others may feel inclined to engage.

    #45510
    zn
    Moderator

    It’s time to go meta, I think.

    Take the famous political compass poll, and then hopefully discuss the differences between and among different positions.

    In this thread.

    time to take the political compass poll again: http://theramshuddle.com/topic/time-to-take-the-political-quiz-again/

    #45514
    bnw
    Blocked

    Did you really say “the left critiques both parties”? Too fucking funny. Honestly thats pee the pants funny.

    Well, see, my guess is, you think dems are “the left.” Which is a typical mistake in narrow-band america. (Not in the rest of the world.) That’s a typical mainstream trap some get caught in.

    The left is invisible in the USA, they don’t HAVE a major party, but it exists. And they are not dems.

    Read the people you’re posting with. Sooner or later, it will become clear.

    Most of us here are not dems, and this goes way way back. As I said lefties don’t have a major party in the USA and as I said yes we critique both. This goes way back. For years and years. Here on this board, most of the core participants have known one another more than 15 years. When I say the lefties on this board critique both parties, I know whereof I speak. Have an open mind and follow the discussion. Don’t be so quick to dismiss what frankly you don’t know yet.

    BS and you know it. There are smaller leftist parties to the left of the democrat party leadership but they remain insignificant. However the democrat party is left as in its voters are left of its leadership and these voters have the numbers to elect candidates throughout the nation at the state and national level. The Bernie phenomenon shows this well. (The same thing Trump has shown within the republican party from the other end of the political spectrum.) Why its voters continue to vote for leadership that throws them a social issue bone once in a while to chew on but screws them over on jobs and purchasing power while fostering dreater dependence only democrat voters can answer. that. I suspect most don’t look past the (D) behind the candidates name.

    Yeah I said major party and I meant it. I was referring to the dominance of the republocrats and demicans. Look back at me on this board discussing the greens. I know about the small parties…they’re not major. Hence, no major parties. That was the whole point.

    One tenet of actual leftists, speaking for ourselves instead of being described by an outsider, is that to us, there is nothing “left” about the democratic party. Hear that, and you will begin to have a better understanding of the people you’re posting with. In europe the american dems would basically be right-wing moderates. That’s how I see them. They are as a rule better on social issues than the right, which is frankly (in my eyes) still stuck in the late 19th century, but that’s about it.

    As for the rest of your things…even though it’s supposed to have this “listen up here’s the truth” tone to it…I still just see it as one narrow perspective among others. It’s also an invitation to debate, but, for me personally, I am just not engaged enough. I am pretty sporadic about that kind of thing. Others may feel inclined to engage.

    I don’t have a “narrow perspective” about Hill’s email scandal. Anyone else would have been prosecuted by now. GUARANTEED.

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #45518
    zn
    Moderator

    I don’t have a “narrow perspective” about Hill’s email scandal. Anyone else would have been prosecuted by now. GUARANTEED.

    I wasn’t discussing that issue, and in fact, really don’t care about it either way.

    .

    #45530
    Eternal Ramnation
    Participant

    Hillary is a pro-choice Republican, that’s the difference in today’s USA. There are depending on Bernie’s next move exactly one leftist in the federal government.There was two but Kucinich no longer holds office and actually works for FOX News. BNW when you say left you are talking about Democrats not me. This is really quite painless takes a couple minutes and in my experience livens up the discussion. https://www.politicalcompass.org/test I took it again just now for reference I am a leftist Libertarian/anarchist on the compass.

    #45589
    Mackeyser
    Moderator

    You know, I know zip on this ’email scandal’ thing. Zero. Nada.
    I havent read a single solitary word about it.
    And i don’t intend to.

    I couldn’t care less whether she “committed a crime” or not
    by sending or receiving “classified” emails.

    I mean to me, the CIA in and of itself is a Crime. The whole entire organization has a long history of assassination, torture, butchery spying on pacifists, derailing democracies, dealing in narcotics…etc, etc, etc. And the FBI aint no better. Or the NSA. All those secret shadow organizations are anti-democratic and rife with corruption.

    I dont care what Clinton did with some emails. What Clinton has done that is perfectly LEGAL is what appalls me. Her support of the mega-corpse, neoliberalsim, the big-banks, goldman-sachs…etc. All THAT stuff is enough for me to loathe her. And Obama. And Bush. And all the mainstream Dems and Reps.

    I could go on. But i have to plant some milkweed seeds.

    wv curmudgeon

    I haven’t read much about it until I found this. I knew she had used a private server, and that she deleted 30,000 personal emails, but that’s it.

    And I don’t really care about the email issue either because whatever she did is nothing compared to what she plans to do if she is president both domestically and internationally. You know…invading Libya and Iraq is a smidge worse than mishandling classified documents (though she could potentially be blackmailed by nasty people).

    The reason I care about the above is that it shows a lot of high up establishment intelligence people are telling Obama that this is really, really bad news, and postponing it, or trying to sweep it under the carpet, could be devastating to her, the party, and the country. To me that means that this scandal is a real scandal – as opposed to so many Clinton scandals over the decades – and I would like to see her destroyed politically. Prison time would be a bonus. And the sooner, the better. That’s why I had interest in it.

    I’m a hardware engineer. Part of my job is email admin- I build these machines and configure the client and setup the end users. I can tell you what she did was egregious and illegal. Also, pretty ignorant with a lot of arrogance mixed in. The only reason I can see in maintaining private server is to hide shit. To assume she could do this with no repercussions was arrogant. To assume the box couldn’t be hacked is ignorant. And most likely our adversaries were reading her mail. Also, email is forever. There’s a copy around somewhere, even if she did a DOD format on the drives (it would be at least two).

    The part of this I just don’t understand is “why”? Most government – State, Mil, etc- systems are more secure- by light years- than anything a private firm could put together on the fly, which this appears to be. And she used Clinton in the domain name. She could have just used her State account for both personal and private stuff and nobody would be the wiser, and it would have been way more secure. Probably would have violated the user policy in place, but most folks up that high don’t bother with such things.

    I’ve had clients who wanted me to do really stupid shit before, but this takes the cake. Arrogance and ignorance. I could cost lives, too.

    As a former network and multimedia engineer, yes, you’re right about the server. She violated 18 USC 793 (f) multiple times. That’s a Class A felony and by my count, there’s at least 22 clear violations that were not of the SBU variety.

    Anyone else at State with this situation would already be in prison.

    As for why, it’s perfectly clear. She wanted to illegally avoid FOIA requests as well as obstruct Congressional Subpoenas. With a private server, Congress couldn’t just compel another agency to hand over her information.

    She’s guilty in a prima facie way because Guccifer, the hacker, pled guilty in federal court to hacking her server.

    That makes her guilty under the Espionage Act 18 USC 793(f) which covers negligent handling of or improper securing of or allowing sensitive materials to be stolen.

    That she had Special Access Program information on that server is unconscionable. That level of information is typically so secret that people have to be “read in” and be granted ultra special access and only for that program. These are typically intelligence programs that can take years to develop, cover the intelligence for a region or a very deep cover mission and the value of these programs rises into the Billions, not to mention the exposure creates existential threats to our national security.

    Sports is the crucible of human virtue. The distillate remains are human vice.

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