Recent Forum Topics › Forums › The Public House › Insanity in the Trump Era: Cherry picked support for whistleblowers.
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wv.
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October 10, 2020 at 10:24 am #122735
Billy_TParticipant*The usual qualifier: This is my view. Not trying to speak for anyone else. Criticisms of “the left” below are not directed at my fellow rank and file leftists. This is about leftists with platforms, and it’s obviously not all of them. Far from that.
Okay. So, in general, I think the world has gone stark raving mad, and that includes parts of my own political home, “the left,” which, before Trump, I just wouldn’t have predicted. I just would not have guessed that any leftist with a platform would ignore the 800-pound neofascist in the room and focus nearly every ounce of their attention, anger and outrage on “corporatist Dems.” This despite their relative lack of power, due the Il Duce’s control of the Executive branch (which includes the DoJ, Intel, the military, etc.) . . . his party’s control of the Senate, the Supreme Court, the lower courts, and most state legislatures around the country. Not to mention Trump and the GOP’s massive advantage in billionaire/corporate support and what that means as far as quid pro quo arrangements. Plus, um, history.
Leftist blindness to the above takes a host of forms, and I find it all frustrating and disappointing beyond belief. It also depresses the hell out of me and has forced a major reassessment regarding my view of my own side of the aisle. By no means am I altering my political philosophy, worldview, principles or fundamental support over this. But I no longer trust parts of the left to be objective, honest or rational about things that should have been slam dunks for them — layups, T-ball home-runs, the obvious difference between flat earths and spheres, etc.
Will deal with other examples in other posts, but this one came to mind recently, due to recent discussions about Assange. More whistleblowers have spoken truth to power in the Trump Era than we’ve seen in any other admin, and because of them we’ve learned more and more about his criminality, corruption, dictatorial ways, criminal negligence, lying, cheating, bullying, etc. etc. But all too often, when this happens, certain leftists just dismiss it all as “deep state” maneuverings. This, I find appalling, especially when these same people sing the praises of Assange, a man partially responsible for placing the neo-fascist gorilla in office in the first place. If they were consistent, they’d offer the same defense and support (at least) for those who have risked their lives (under Trump’s neo-fascist reign) as they have for the man who worked with the Russians and the Trump campaign to help them steal the election. And, yes, that’s what he did. In 2016, Assange wasn’t this great champion of the people and transparency. If he had been, he would have exposed Trump, the GOP and Russia too, along with the Dems. He would have spread that sunlight over everyone in power. Instead, he chose just one part of the Establishment to go after, and the far less dangerous part to boot.
More later. Thoughts welcome . . .
October 10, 2020 at 10:35 am #122738Billy_TParticipantQuick clarification, though this shouldn’t need saying:
I support what Assange did when he cast sunlight on government wrongdoing via the Iraq War, etc., and I think it’s immoral to persecute him for that. But people change. And when we judge their relative impact on society, it shouldn’t be for this but not that action, this but not that point in time. Our judgment should take as much into account as possible, across time.
The mob boss who helps feed hungry children also ordered torture and murder, etc. etc.
October 10, 2020 at 11:15 am #122748
ZooeyModeratorYeah. I…yeah.
I don’t have anything to offer except that humans are complicated, and good people do bad things, and stupid things, and that includes the Left.
One of the reasons I love Vonnegut so much is that he saw humans as “bungled and botched.” And in his worldview, his sympathies were with common people. But he also had a knack for portraying the “fabulously well-to-do” as common people as well. He held an equalizing vision of humans. That…regardless of station…we are all just bungled and botched. Rich Poor. Left Right. Old Young.
And he had compassion for that.
And I find myself circling back to that whenever I am feeling particularly self-righteous. Which is too often.
I guess what I’m saying is…don’t expect too much from people.
October 10, 2020 at 1:45 pm #122755Billy_TParticipantYeah. I…yeah.
I don’t have anything to offer except that humans are complicated, and good people do bad things, and stupid things, and that includes the Left.
One of the reasons I love Vonnegut so much is that he saw humans as “bungled and botched.” And in his worldview, his sympathies were with common people. But he also had a knack for portraying the “fabulously well-to-do” as common people as well. He held an equalizing vision of humans. That…regardless of station…we are all just bungled and botched. Rich Poor. Left Right. Old Young.
And he had compassion for that.
And I find myself circling back to that whenever I am feeling particularly self-righteous. Which is too often.
I guess what I’m saying is…don’t expect too much from people.
Thanks for that, Zooey. Vonnegut was a wise man. Puts things into perspective.
October 10, 2020 at 1:59 pm #122756
wvParticipant“…This, I find appalling, especially when these same people sing the praises of Assange, a man partially responsible for placing the neo-fascist gorilla in office in the first place….”
============Well, I agree, and disagree. And agree, and disagree. I go round and round on this in my own head. I will never quite resolve it.
On the one hand, that view seems similar to the “blame Jill Stein” or “blame Ralph Nader” notions. I mean, i can see how people would think that, but i also know that what Assange published and what Nader says, and what Stein says — is all TRUE. Do i blame people for telling the truth?
Now the actual (and forseeable) results were — they gave us Republican Monsters.
So, I get that ‘there’s that.’I’ve often asked Assange-lovers about that fact that surely he could have exposed facts about Trump too. But who knows. Assange says he had nothing on Trump. No-one gave him documents on Trump.
But then it doesnt take a genius to know, Assange knew Hillary was against him. So maybe he tilted toward Trump hoping for the best. I dunno.
And of course, just because Assange didnt go after trump, doesnt justify the Western Governments unconscionable attack on him. Its the Snowden treatment and its unconscionable. Its what they do though. Call it the deep state or corporotacracy or whatever. Its what they do.
At any rate, while I am not one of those who thinks Assange is a saint (and there are a TON of those on the left), I am still probly thinking of him as a flawed-but-positive-force in the world. Wikileaks has fought the good fight imho. Not perfect, but I support them.
I saw a lot of lefties attacking AOC on Twitter. Because she was wrong about Venezuela or this, or that. And I’ve seen a lot of lefties attacking Bernie. He’s “too far to the right.” Etc and so forth.
Assange, Nader, Bernie, Jill, AOC…. as i have scrolled thru twitter the last week, I have found myself wanting to strangle Many-a-young-leftist. I want to say, “I know these people are flawed — but lets focus on how to create MORE leftists. We need MORE leftists. We need non-leftists to turn into Leftists. We need to turn them. Like vampires. Now how…do…we…do…THAT ?
I dont think we do it, by focusing on whats wrong with this or that person of the left.
I’m just riffing here. Just wondering if there can ever be a unified approach on the ‘left’.
October 10, 2020 at 2:39 pm #122759Billy_TParticipantWV,
Hope you’re well —
In no way do I see Assange in the same light as I do Stein, whom I voted for twice. Nor do I see him in the same light as Nader, whom I’ve defended in countless arguments about “who gave us Dubya.” As in, he didn’t. Not in the slightest.
To me, they’re just not in the same universe, as far as their deeds, their intentions, or their impact.
Assange worked directly with the Trump campaign to go after Clinton, while he said nothing, not a word about Trump, or the GOP. And I don’t buy that he had nothing to say about Trump or the Republicans. The man was a walking scandal machine his entire adult life, with known mob ties, rape and sexual assault charges, endless tax cheating, ripping off workers including the undocumented, seven bankruptcies that left workers and small business owners holding the bag, his phony charities, his phony university, etc. etc. Trump made and still makes the Clintons look like heavenly angels in comparison, and that was the case pre-2016.
And the public didn’t know that Comey and the FBI were investigating Trump and his campaign until after the election. Assange couldn’t have leaked that? We found out about Clinton’s investigation, twice. Why not Trump’s?
Not to mention what should be a rather important matter to leftists: Trump’s a fascist wannabe dictator, and he’s encouraging, directly, far-right nutcases to shut down the vote. He’s at least indirectly encouraged them to commit violent acts against Dems, which almost got Whitmer killed.
But, yeah, let’s spend all our time going after centrist, corporatist Dems, cuz they’re the real menace to Americans.
I picked the wrong day to stop drinking.
October 10, 2020 at 3:41 pm #122762wvParticipantWV,
Hope you’re well —
In no way do I see Assange in the same light as I do Stein, whom I voted for twice. Nor do I see him in the same light as Nader, whom I’ve defended in countless arguments about “who gave us Dubya.” As in, he didn’t. Not in the slightest.
To me, they’re just not in the same universe, as far as their deeds, their intentions, or their impact.
Assange worked directly with the Trump campaign to go after Clinton, while he said nothing, not a word about Trump, or the GOP. And I don’t buy that he had nothing to say about Trump or the Republicans. The man was a walking scandal machine his entire adult life, with known mob ties, rape and sexual assault charges, endless tax cheating, ripping off workers including the undocumented, seven bankruptcies that left workers and small business owners holding the bag, his phony charities, his phony university, etc. etc. Trump made and still makes the Clintons look like heavenly angels in comparison, and that was the case pre-2016.
And the public didn’t know that Comey and the FBI were investigating Trump and his campaign until after the election. Assange couldn’t have leaked that? We found out about Clinton’s investigation, twice. Why not Trump’s?
Not to mention what should be a rather important matter to leftists: Trump’s a fascist wannabe dictator, and he’s encouraging, directly, far-right nutcases to shut down the vote. He’s at least indirectly encouraged them to commit violent acts against Dems, which almost got Whitmer killed.
But, yeah, let’s spend all our time going after centrist, corporatist Dems, cuz they’re the real menace to Americans.
I picked the wrong day to stop drinking.
=============
Ok, we just see it differently. Assange told the Truth About Hillary. I dont care who he was working with.
And because he told the truth, he is being utterly, physically destroyed.
There is zero evidence that he suppressed any info on Trump. There is zero evidence he had any evidence against Trump. That is all speculation.
w
vOctober 10, 2020 at 5:39 pm #122773Billy_TParticipantOk, we just see it differently. Assange told the Truth About Hillary. I dont care who he was working with.
And because he told the truth, he is being utterly, physically destroyed.
There is zero evidence that he suppressed any info on Trump. There is zero evidence he had any evidence against Trump. That is all speculation.
w
vClinton and her staff sound(ed) awful from the leaks.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-37639370
I never liked her or her husband, who I think is far worse. I voted for Stein, as mentioned.
It goes without saying that I support exposing wrongdoing. The more sunlight the better. But that needs to be across the board, and include the private sector too. And, yeah, there was plenty of dirt to be had about Trump and his party. And I don’t see it as speculation to say so. Trump’s record of criminality was well-known among New Yorkers, especially. How on earth could Assange not have known? Not to mention dirt on the GOP in general? They did nothing wrong? Nothing worth exposing?
Choosing just one party to expose can’t help but radically distort reality and mislead voters to the nth degree. It’s unforgivable in my book, especially knowing who that helped and what he’s done in office.
Anyway . . .
I’m already backsliding here, writing about the political again. Enjoy your weekend. It will be much easier for me cuz I get to see the Rams “live.”
;>)
October 10, 2020 at 6:18 pm #122776wvParticipant< And, yeah, there was plenty of dirt to be had about Trump and his party. And I don’t see it as speculation to say so.
===================
Its not speculation to think there was dirt on Trump. But it is speculation to think Assange had any dirt on Trump. He says he didnt. We dont know.
And I think the larger issue is what the global-capitalist-system is doing to Assange. They are killing him. As an example to whistle-blowers.
w
vOctober 10, 2020 at 8:59 pm #122777
TSRFParticipantVote Biden.
Vote early, vote often.
October 11, 2020 at 10:53 am #122791Billy_TParticipantWell, I think we may have gotten off-track here a bit. At least from my POV. Which is, Assange, per se, isn’t the issue. How he’s being treated isn’t the issue. It’s the bizarro world we’re living in right now, in which the perfect embodiment of all we leftists should detest, abhor, condemn and despise — neo-fascist Trump and his neo-fascist party — isn’t the focus of leftist outrage. It’s the other party, largely out of power, instead. It’s the party that is better on every single issue than Trump and his. Not “good,” by any means, on those issues. Not what we would hope for by any stretch of the imagination. But, better, relative to Trump and the GOP.
As in, in any comparison of the two parties, the GOP is demonstrably worse, and it’s not close. And, to make it all especially existential for leftists, Trump foments violence against us, almost daily. His media arms foment violence against us, almost daily. His enablers do this as well. Of course, we’re not alone as objects of that hatred, nor are we the most endangered. Trump and the GOP continue scapegoating black and brown people here and abroad, migrants in general, women, gay people, etc. etc. Trump, in fact, ran on the fascist agenda of doing just that: whipping up fear and hatred of “the Other,” on a global scale. His enemies list echoes Hitler’s, with perhaps just one exception, and even that exception disappears for a goodly chunk of his supporters: Jews. Trump’s call to ban Muslims in America is no different than Hitler’s initial call to ban Jews. In fact, Hitler’s was a tad more subtle at first, banning them from certain vocations, places, etc., not entirely from Germany.
Fast forward to now? Trump has been busy trying to form right-wing paramilitary groups to help him win the election, with a wink and a nod from the DoJ; corrupted the Postal Service to help in this election too; continuously calls for the jailing of his political rivals; stages super-spreader events at the White House; and goes full-on Mussolini, standing on the White House balcony, drenched in the adoration of his captive audience.
Not to mention, his opening up of one of the last protected rain forests in North America to logging, Big Oil, etc. etc. Or revelations of the obscene sadism of his Border policies. Or his tax cheating, etc. etc.
As bad as Clinton and the Dems were/are, they wouldn’t have done any of the above. And if leftists got their info solely from certain lefty-platforms, they’d never know any of that. They’d have to believe the Dems were far and away the sole existential threat to this society and the planet, because that’s all those shows talk about.
I want both major parties gone, the economy replaced with true economic democracy, and humans to finally evolve away from a “having” mode to a “being” mode, a la Erich Fromm. But, right now? That’s not our current reality, which is a battle royale between those two major parties, centrist to center-right Dems, versus further to far-right Republicans. It’s simply not rational to focus most, if not all, leftist attention on the better of the two rotten political parties in the race.
October 11, 2020 at 11:52 am #122795Billy_TParticipantSomething else to consider, and this may be the most baffling puzzle of all:
Unless I missed it, I don’t remember this ever happening before . . .
Leftists dismissing criticism of a presidency on the basis of “deep state propaganda.” Dismissing this or that whistleblower, news report, oversight hearing, impeachment hearing, etc. etc. . . . as just one more brick in the wall of the “deep state.”
It didn’t happen under Clinton, Bush or Obama. It didn’t happen during any other presidency in living memory. If anything, leftists tend(ed) to argue vehemently in the other direction. That the most egregious acts, misdeeds and wrongs of this or that administration were/are ignored, covered up, or, at best, radically undercounted.
What is it about Trump and our times that changed this? What is it that seemed to have triggered an almost reflexive defense of Trump, every time another revelation appeared about his egregious acts, misdeeds and wrongs? And why has this come from “the left” in defense of a neo-fascist, of all people/regimes?
October 11, 2020 at 12:04 pm #122796wvParticipantWell, we agree on Trump, we agree on the Repugnants.
As for the leftists who are doing the things you are talking about, I’d need to see the specific tweets or posts to know what you are talking about.
When i go on twitter I see all kinds of leftists. I’m kinda trying to break them down into five or six over-simplified-categories right now. Just so i have some broad notion of ‘the internet left’. I see a shitload of young leftists who want ‘Revolution NOW!!.’ They dont think any electoral process will work. They dont defend trump. Or biden. The just see a shitstorm-country and they want a revolution now. And they tend to attack anyone who disagrees with them.
They are well-meaning, young, idiots. So, thats one category of internet-leftists.
It sounds like you are describing the Lee Camps and Jimmy Dores of the left. The ones that focus a lot on the Dems. Yes? We need a name for them. I dont mind them as much as you.
w
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