OL assessments near as you can do those now

This topic has 25 replies, 7 voices, and was last updated 8 years, 11 months ago by zn.

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December 2, 2015 at 8:04 pm #35053

zn
Moderator

Injured Rams OL from week 1 2012 to this week

I count as injured “unable to play.” So if it’s anywhere from missed significant time in camp, to missed some starts, to gone because of injury.

Wells, Saffold, Watkins, Hunter, Dahl, Long, C.Williams, Barnes, Rhaney, Robinson, Jones, Wichman, Brown, Havenstein, D.Williams, Donnal.

That’s 16 in 2 1/2 years.

Of those, some had significant previous injury histories either before 2012 or before the Rams acquired them: Saffold, Long, Jones, Donnal. 4 of 16 or 25%.

December 4, 2015 at 10:15 am #35091

zn
Moderator

Rams added 12 linemen in the last 2 years. They could add more based on their own internal aassessment. And then they might not.

It is way too soon to sort out who is good or bad in that. 2 things make the issue murky. First, a line that young and inexperienced will not be coherent and in sync. That’s a “sum is greater than the parts” issue. It is difficult to reduce all that to one on one grades and then act like that’s a real OL eval. Truth is until they settle down as a unit it is hard to make too many generalizations about the individual parts.

Fact is the vast majority of young linemen struggle initially. I have done the numbers on this multiple times. That means that any judgment anyone has of a rookie or 2nd year guy is potentially off-base. This is true of 1st round picks through UDFAs. Most assessments of young linemen are just shots in the dark. The majority of the time, you don’t really know what you have for a couple of years. Now and then a guy like Havenstein defies those odds but it’s rare.

Then of course on top of it they got multiple injuries. (Some people keep mistaking that issue for the started out young and inexperienced issues. While it is always true that multiple simultaneous OL injuries will reduce the effectiveness of an offense, and it’s true now, that’s not the reason the 2015 offense started out slow. They started out slow because it was the youngest and least inexperienced NFL any of us have ever heard of.)

In terns of the guys they added, always remember this—the Rams have a way of making something out of re-cycled vets and have done that since 2012. There’s a long list of guys who played effectively for the Rams who never did anything before or since. That includes guys like Barksdale, Smith, and Turner etc. So it’s important to remember that going forward. They have a bunch of new vets added to the roster, and by next year guys like that could be anything from starters to good depth. This year, Reynolds is another example of that, though he is better at guard than ROT (he played ROT because the Rams had 3 prior injuries there—Havenstein, Williams, and Donnal.)

Here;s the 12 they added, in alphabetical order. And of course they may decide to add more.

Arkin. another Reynolds? don’t rule it out.
Battle. rookie, who knows yet.
Brown. started out with promise, injured
Donnal. too little sample size, injured.
Folkerts. another Reynolds? don’t rule it out.
Havenstein. started out with promise, injured
Kush. another Reynolds? don’t rule it out.
Reynolds.
Rhaney. struggling youngster
Robinson. struggling youngster
Wichman. struggling youngster
Williams. too little sample size, injured.

Then there’s Barnes as an inherited vet, and of course they have Saffold on IR. So that’s 14 total, though who knows if Saffold is in the future mix or not.

14 linemen is a lot to work with.

And maybe they don’t think they’re done…who knows.

HOWEVER, I want to stress that any PRESENT assessment of their value as a group is going to be way premature and not really tell us anything. They’re too young overall and multiple injuries clouded it further.

December 4, 2015 at 1:16 pm #35092

Eternal Ramnation
Participant

One thing we can assess is the Fisher regime’s ability to acquire viable OL personnel.Fisher,Snead and Boo are the constants. A four year sample size to work with. Wells had existing knee problems when he broke his foot in week 1.

December 4, 2015 at 1:53 pm #35093

snowman
Participant

Well, I think we can and do assess the present value of the offensive line, and all personnel for that matter, in the present. Players are graded and evaluated after every game and probably based on practice too.

It is hard to predict the value of the offensive line based on what we see in the present. It is tough to project how good a player or unit of players will be three years from now for a number of reasons.

December 4, 2015 at 2:04 pm #35095

zn
Moderator

Eternal Ramnation wrote:

One thing we can assess is the Fisher regime’s ability to acquire viable OL personnel.Fisher,Snead and Boo are the constants. A four year sample size to work with. Wells had existing knee problems when he broke his foot in week 1.

No that’s not true of Wells. He had a routine clean-up scope after playing every game in 2011. That was not an “existing knee problem.” The absurd series of injuries and infections he had after signing with the Rams—one of which sent him to ICU where he lost 40 pounds just before camp—had nothing to do with prior conditions.

Here;s what we can say about Fisher and Boudreau and OLs.

First, they both put together good ones several times over a combined 40 years prior to the Rams.

Second, they put together good ones with the Rams, when they were not held back by multiple simultaneous injuries. So for example, in 2012, after the injury epidemic in the first 8 games, they were relatively healthy and played well. That is, Jackson got 4.3 a carry, their sack percentage of 4% was the lowest for any Rams qb since the mid 80s, and they went 4-3-1 in games that included the NFC champ that year and 5 top 12 defenses. You can’t do all of that combined with poor OL.

2013 has a similar profile.

In each case, one neglected feature of their good work with OLs is the long list of recycled vets they used who had never done anything before the Rams and never did anything after the Rams…but played well with the Rams.

In terms of the injuries, that is just plain stupid bad luck. Nothing else can explain this: in the last 2 years they added 8 rookie/young linemen, and at this point, 7 of them have been injured. Yet only ONE of them had a previous injury history (Donnal).

A small percentage of Rams OL acquisitions had prior injury histories and it does not include Wells. Yet in spite of any prior injury history, the Rams OL continues to suffer multiple injuries.

The only explanation I can come up with for that is that sometimes random chance is particularly bad to you. And that beyond that there is no explanation.

.

December 5, 2015 at 5:04 am #35121

Eternal Ramnation
Participant

zn wrote:

Eternal Ramnation wrote:

One thing we can assess is the Fisher regime’s ability to acquire viable OL personnel.Fisher,Snead and Boo are the constants. A four year sample size to work with. Wells had existing knee problems when he broke his foot in week 1.

No that’s not true of Wells. He had a routine clean-up scope after playing every game in 2011. That was not an “existing knee problem.” The absurd series of injuries and infections he had after signing with the Rams—one of which sent him to ICU where he lost 40 pounds just before camp—had nothing to do with prior conditions.

Here;s what we can say about Fisher and Boudreau and OLs.

First, they both put together good ones several times over a combined 40 years prior to the Rams.

Second, they put together good ones with the Rams, when they were not held back by multiple simultaneous injuries. So for example, in 2012, after the injury epidemic in the first 8 games, they were relatively healthy and played well. That is, Jackson got 4.3 a carry, their sack percentage of 4% was the lowest for any Rams qb since the mid 80s, and they went 4-3-1 in games that included the NFC champ that year and 5 top 12 defenses. You can’t do all of that combined with poor OL.

2013 has a similar profile.

In each case, one neglected feature of their good work with OLs is the long list of recycled vets they used who had never done anything before the Rams and never did anything after the Rams…but played well with the Rams.

In terms of the injuries, that is just plain stupid bad luck. Nothing else can explain this: in the last 2 years they added 8 rookie/young linemen, and at this point, 7 of them have been injured. Yet only ONE of them had a previous injury history (Donnal).

A small percentage of Rams OL acquisitions had prior injury histories and it does not include Wells. Yet in spite of any prior injury history, the Rams OL continues to suffer multiple injuries.

The only explanation I can come up with for that is that sometimes random chance is particularly bad to you. And that beyond that there is no explanation.

.

I disagree whether or not it was routine there was a reason for the clean up and it didn’t materialize because of half a game in 2012.The infection ,actually has a history at the ED. Remember one of my favorite old Rams Jack Snow died from an infection. Martz had that strange illness in 2005. Yeah we can twist and contort back a few decades and find success but imo it’s just not relevant . And we can chop out stretches where the OL played better but the knock on this regime is consistency and discipline. How far do we chop this up ,I mean the 2009 Lions OL played really great against the Browns? 7-8-1,7-9,6-10 4-7 now . We could win another one but I wouldn’t put money on it.

December 5, 2015 at 9:53 am #35128

zn
Moderator

just another view from off the net

===

Deadpool

the young and inexperienced part is a major reason why they were subpar to begin the season. The injuries have made this line worse IMO. So the injuries have been a cause for the OL troubles.

At some point you just have to stand pat, let the guys gel as a unit and pray they stay healthy and improve.

Its a young line, that has been riddled by injuries. But the thing is, not one team in the NFL is going to give up on a 2nd round RT and a 3rd round RG after 1 year. So those 2 are going to be there in 2016. Saffold’s contract says he is going to be there at LG in 2016. 6m cap number with 3m in dead money and 3m in cap savings so yeah… They also are not giving up on the 2nd overall pick from 2 years ago. So Robinson is here as well.

Whats my point? Robinson, Saffold, Brown and Hav are all going to be here next year and starting as long as they are healthy. I wouldn’t mind a mid round pick at OC for competition and let the rookie and Barnes battle it out. Give those 5 guys (or at least 4 of them another offseason to gel, as well as getting stronger in the offseason conditioning program.

Another thing that is rarely touched on, is Robinson. Year 1 he was moved between LT and OG. Then they settled him in at OG. Then he was moved back to LT. Coming from a simplified offense, and being so young along with the constant moving had to slow his learning curve. So now its year 2 and what do they do? Have him lose weight and switch to a one blocking scheme. I am not sure if he knows if he’s afoot or on horseback. He’s a really good athlete, so there is nothing saying he cannot play the position. Everything said about him at AU was that he was a hard worker. So maybe, just maybe a 2nd year at his original position, with the same blocking scheme will allow him to stop thinking and just play. Which, IMO, would improve his game.

On Barnes, he was playing well early until he had raw, overmatched rookies on both sides of him caused him to maybe try and overcompensate for his interior linemates. I think if you bring back Saffold and Brown, he would be just fine.

As far as Hav and Brown, 1 year in the offseason program and minicamps will do wonders for them both.

The problem I have with the injuries I guess involves Saffold. To sign a guy with annual injuries to a big contract and then expecting him to stay healthy seemed very risky. And his injury really set in motion a whole slew of line shuffling that the Rams have never recovered from. But I just do not see the Rams eating 3m in dead money to save 3m in cap space. I’m just trying to take a realistic approach to this mess. And IMO, the Rams will not eat 3m. I could be wrong.

December 5, 2015 at 2:14 pm #35130

wv
Participant

zn wrote:

Deadpool
Another thing that is rarely touched on, is Robinson… He’s a really good athlete, so there is nothing saying he cannot play the position. Everything said about him at AU was that he was a hard worker. So maybe, just maybe a 2nd year at his original position, with the same blocking scheme will allow him to stop thinking and just play. Which, IMO, would improve his game.

Well, I am off the GRob bandwagon, myself. For two years,
Ive read about what a “great athlete” he is, and thus
and therefore, he must be able to pass-block.

But just because he’s been a “great athlete” does not
necessarily mean he has what it takes to “pass block” in the NFL.

So far he is very disappointing as a pass-blocker.

Maybe he improves. Maybe he doesn’t. I don’t see
any reason to think one path is more likely
than the other.

w
v

December 5, 2015 at 2:49 pm #35133

zn
Moderator

wv wrote:

and thus
and therefore, he must be able to pass-block.

Well athlete does not mean pass blocker per se. Pass blocking is technique and awareness. Athlete means potential for SUPERIOR pass blocker. But until he learns the technique and gains awareness, he is going to be more limited.

IMO every complaint we hear about GR gets down to technique and awareness, both of which have to do with experience and learning.

He was just THAT raw coming out. Way behind.

Yet at the same time, they have 2 more LOT prospects in Battle and Wms. So, that;s interesting too.

.

December 5, 2015 at 5:36 pm #35134

wv
Participant

zn wrote:

wv wrote:

and thus
and therefore, he must be able to pass-block.

Well athlete does not mean pass blocker per se. Pass blocking is technique and awareness. Athlete means potential for SUPERIOR pass blocker. But until he learns the technique and gains awareness, he is going to be more limited.

IMO every complaint we hear about GR gets down to technique and awareness, both of which have to do with experience and learning.

He was just THAT raw coming out. Way behind.

Yet at the same time, they have 2 more LOT prospects in Battle and Wms. So, that;s interesting too.

.

Well I hope you are right, but I am skeptical at this point.

Overall though, I’m less worried about the OLine in the long-term
than I am the QB, TE, and Receiver situation. Mainly
I think it was the injuries that did-in the Oline. Mainly.

But Cook has to go. I do not think Foles is the longterm answer,
and I think they need a WR who is a No.1 guy.

w
v

w
v

December 5, 2015 at 7:07 pm #35135

zn
Moderator

wv wrote:

Well I hope you are right, but I am skeptical at this point.

Sigh.

Another board war.

Oh well.

December 6, 2015 at 12:23 am #35139

InvaderRam
Moderator

i seem to remember reports saying that robinson was not putting in the necessary preparation it takes to be a professional instead relying on his athleticism. that’s disappointing. so maybe he realizes he can’t get away with it at this level. hopefully it’s just part of the maturation process. he needs to wake up.

December 6, 2015 at 12:48 am #35140

Agamemnon
Participant

http://theramshuddle.com/topic/rams-tackle-greg-robinson-working-to-correct-technical-issues/#post-34439

I think this is the post, Invader. Or do a search for coacho.

Agamemnon

December 6, 2015 at 9:18 am #35144

zn
Moderator

InvaderRam wrote:

i seem to remember reports saying that robinson was not putting in the necessary preparation it takes to be a professional instead relying on his athleticism. that’s disappointing. so maybe he realizes he can’t get away with it at this level. hopefully it’s just part of the maturation process. he needs to wake up.

Well no the report was that he had STOPPED doing that, ie. that he had stopped believing he was just athletic enough and didn’t need more. The issue was specifically him studying film of his opponents.

That’s not that uncommon. Williams openly came out and said he had similar issues with Joyner, that in 2014 Joyner just believed in his own athleticism and wouldn’t do things the way he was supposed to.

The recent revelation about Robinson came in the wake of GR realizing that he was doing things the wrong way by not studying opponents and so on.

December 6, 2015 at 11:36 am #35157

Zooey
Moderator

wv wrote:

Overall though, I’m less worried about the OLine in the long-term
than I am the QB, TE, and Receiver situation. Mainly
I think it was the injuries that did-in the Oline. Mainly.

But Cook has to go. I do not think Foles is the longterm answer,
and I think they need a WR who is a No.1 guy.

w
v

w
v

This right here is the Absolute Truth of the Rams situation.

December 6, 2015 at 12:00 pm #35161

Agamemnon
Participant

I think he was doing better when Reynolds played next to him. Let’s see how he does today.

Agamemnon

December 6, 2015 at 12:06 pm #35162

wv
Participant

Agamemnon wrote:

<span class=”d4pbbc-font-color” style=”color: blue”>I think he was doing better when Reynolds played next to him. Let’s see how he does today.</span>

Your post would have more gravitas
it you had a picture of plastic army men.

w
v

December 6, 2015 at 12:14 pm #35164

Agamemnon
Participant

wv wrote:

gravitas

I didn’t even know that word. Is gravitas a good thing?

Agamemnon

December 6, 2015 at 12:29 pm #35166

Zooey
Moderator

wv wrote:

Your post would have more gravitas
it you had a picture of plastic army men.

w
v

When I was a kid, I would divide up all my army men between me and a friend or idiot brother, set them up across from each other, and take turns with rubber bands knocking over each other’s army men. The first one to wipe out the other was the winner. That was more fun than repairing dry rot in a deck.

December 6, 2015 at 1:00 pm #35168

InvaderRam
Moderator

zn wrote:

InvaderRam wrote:

i seem to remember reports saying that robinson was not putting in the necessary preparation it takes to be a professional instead relying on his athleticism. that’s disappointing. so maybe he realizes he can’t get away with it at this level. hopefully it’s just part of the maturation process. he needs to wake up.

Well no the report was that he had STOPPED doing that, ie. that he had stopped believing he was just athletic enough and didn’t need more. The issue was specifically him studying film of his opponents.

That’s not that uncommon. Williams openly came out and said he had similar issues with Joyner, that in 2014 Joyner just believed in his own athleticism and wouldn’t do things the way he was supposed to.

The recent revelation about Robinson came in the wake of GR realizing that he was doing things the wrong way by not studying opponents and so on.

yes. it recently has changed. hopefully now he maintains that and actually learns from it. i mean he should be embarrassed right now.

December 6, 2015 at 9:35 pm #35193

Agamemnon
Participant

The offensive line had no sacks and no penalties against Arizona. The defensive line was not off sides.

Agamemnon

December 6, 2015 at 10:21 pm #35204

zn
Moderator

Agamemnon wrote:

The offensive line had no sacks and no penalties against Arizona. The defensive line was not off sides.

Well yeah they had a couple of false starts…were those not on linemen? Were they all on TE/WRs?

.

December 6, 2015 at 10:26 pm #35205

Agamemnon
Participant

zn wrote:

Agamemnon wrote:

The offensive line had no sacks and no penalties against Arizona. The defensive line was not off sides.

Well yeah they had a couple of false starts…were those not on linemen? Were they all on TE/WRs?

.

Guess who? Cook and Britt.

Agamemnon

December 6, 2015 at 10:32 pm #35206

InvaderRam
Moderator

i think fisher’s got a problem drafting knuckleheads. could robinson be the next in a long line of super-athletic knuckleheads drafted by fisher?

December 6, 2015 at 10:54 pm #35207

Agamemnon
Participant

I bet Robinson would be a good DT.

Agamemnon

December 7, 2015 at 12:49 am #35208

zn
Moderator

InvaderRam wrote:

i think fisher’s got a problem drafting knuckleheads. could robinson be the next in a long line of super-athletic knuckleheads drafted by fisher?

We used to say the same thing about Jenkins.

I can’t think of a long line of knuckleheads they drafted. Just Pead. Or Bailey, if you count his suspensions. They actually seem to have a long line of high value picks. Knucleheads appear to be a small fraction. That’s nothing like the 2005/6 Rams, which led the league in knuckleheads: Barron, Incognito, Terrell, Byrd, and Wroten.
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