relocation: Former Raiders CEO Amy Trask Talks Kroenke, Rams' Future & Stadium

Recent Forum Topics Forums The Rams Huddle relocation: Former Raiders CEO Amy Trask Talks Kroenke, Rams' Future & Stadium

Viewing 24 posts - 31 through 54 (of 54 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #16735
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    So I read through all of these posts. I still don’t get it. But it’s early on a Saturday, and I’ve only had one cup of coffee. Help me, please.

    Suppose Stan says, “I’m moving to LA”. What can anyone really do about it?

    Can the other owners fine him? Stan could just not pay it.

    The NFL isn’t gonna kick the Rams out of the league, no matter what their owner does.

    So what penalty, that can be enforced, could the league impose on Stan? It would have to be something involving money, because I can’t see any other way of punishing an NFL owner. But what do I know?

    There’s financial penalties. The league could sue to enforce them.

    So, basically he can move, and pay a fine.

    w
    v

    #16737
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    There’s financial penalties. The league could sue to enforce them.

    So, basically he can move, and pay a fine.

    w
    v

    Which include, if I read it right, being cut off from that team’s share of tv contract revenue.

    That would mean, in effect,that every dime spent on the Rams would come from SK’s own pocket…minus ticket sales, which do not compare to the tv money.

    #16738
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    There’s financial penalties. The league could sue to enforce them.

    So, basically he can move, and pay a fine.

    w
    v

    Which include, if I read it right, being cut off from that team’s share of tv contract revenue.


    According to former Raiders CEO Amy Trask via this piece with Jim Thomas of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, an unapproved move by an owner would bring “draconian” penalties, including but not limited to the loss of annual TV revenues — which equated to about $200 million per team for the 2013 season alone.

    All things considered, it would appear that a rogue move would be unlikely and certainly very costly if fulfilled, considering the above and the fact that the league controls over 60 percent each team’s revenues.

    ===

    http://www.stltoday.com/sports/football/professional/kroenke-faces-rough-road-out-of-town/article_460da03e-0329-58b5-977b-bc5167ce952c.html

    “It’s not like the olden days in that regard. The league really battened down the hatches to prevent teams from acting as rogue agents.”

    Since that “relocation era,” the league has tweaked and added to its relocation policies. The league has also implemented financial penalties for teams that move without league approval.

    The league has put in place a number of safeguards, if you will, which make it very, very, very hard for a team to … act as a rogue agent,” Trask said.

    “These safeguards are really draconian. They involve financial penalties and other penalties that really should deter teams from doing things like that without (league approval).”

    Among them are forfeitures of part of a team’s annual share of leaguewide television revenue. Another is forfeiture of a team’s share of leaguewide income from NFL Properties — the league’s merchandising arm.

    #16739
    Winnbrad
    Participant

    Thanks guys!

    That helped.

    #16740
    Winnbrad
    Participant

    So it seems what Stan needs to do is convince 31 rich white guys, and the Green Bay Packers, that he isn’t a “rogue agent”.

    That term seems kind of heavy-handed for a man that just wants to move a team, but I guess it makes the point. Sounds like he’s holding a white cat and launching a missile, though.

    #16741
    Avatar photoInvaderRam
    Moderator

    i don’t think he’s going rogue.

    by the way. when do the rams have to respond to st louis’ plan? end of the month?

    #16742
    Avatar photoInvaderRam
    Moderator

    also the tv revenue. is that one year or indefinite?

    #16743
    Avatar photoZooey
    Moderator

    also the tv revenue. is that one year or indefinite?

    I am sure that would end up going to court and eventually being negotiated. Nobody knows what the league would do if Stan went rogue, not even the league. Grubman said nobody is thinking about that right now, and I believe him. Why would you spend energy on that when it’s a remote possibility at this point?

    I don’t think Kroenke is going to go rogue, either. I’ve said all along I don’t think it’s in his nature, judging by his history; moreover, Grubman confirmed that the league knew in advance of the LA project Kroenke announced.

    Really, now that the NFL has spoken, it appears to me that the whole process is being measured carefully, and nothing is certain yet…except that there WILL be a team in Los Angeles soon, probably 2016.

    There are now three viable stadium plans for Los Angeles. (I am calling Kroenke’s plan viable a bit prematurely. It has not yet been sanctioned politically/environmentally, but I think it’s pretty safe to assume it will be). The holdup on the other two stadiums is that the investors involved in those projects want to be in ownership of the tenant. If I have my facts straight, one of the projects wants to own the team, and the other would be willing to own a mere 35% of the team. So far no team has made itself available.

    That could change.

    I have no idea what Davis is thinking in Oakland, but it is clear that Spanos wants LA. With Kroenke making a strong move, Spanos has now got to come up with a plan a little more proactive than simply throwing a hissy fit and rallying a few owners to vote No on the Rams. He may be able to delay things a bit, but I don’t think that he can hold up the Rams indefinitely without a viable alternative plan for re-colonizing Los Angeles. Would he sell 35% of the Chargers? Or negotiate something like that…25% or something? He now has pressure to make a deal; so do the stadium consortiums. They have to get something done soon, or their plans go up in flames. The clock is now ticking on everybody with an interest in Los Angeles.

    And should Spanos be willing to sell part of the Chargers, he could jump ahead of Kroenke in the timeline because the other two stadiums in question are already approved and could start building tomorrow, afaik.

    I did not know, btw, that 1/4 of the Chargers’ season tickets are from LA. If that is true, Spanos’ case for rights to LA is a bit stronger than I previously thought it was.

    #16745
    Avatar photoInvaderRam
    Moderator

    i’ve read that the nfl is not a real big fan of farmer’s field and spanos is unlikely to sell part of his team. in fact aeg i’ve read wants majority ownership. that leads me to believe that kroenke’s in the lead for a move to la. my guess is the nfl is strongly against davis and the raiders moving to los angeles.

    #16746
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    So it seems what Stan needs to do is convince 31 rich white guys, and the Green Bay Packers, that he isn’t a “rogue agent”.

    24 rich white guys, not 31.

    w
    v

    #16747
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    i’ve read that the nfl is not a real big fan of farmer’s field and spanos is unlikely to sell part of his team. in fact aeg i’ve read wants majority ownership. that leads me to believe that kroenke’s in the lead for a move to la. my guess is the nfl is strongly against davis and the raiders moving to los angeles.

    If the league approved a Spanos move,
    and Spanos had a stadium deal in LA,
    what would that do to Kroenke’s leverage
    in St.Louis? He’d lose any leverage he had, yes? No?
    Would he threaten to move somewhere else? 2nd team in LA ?

    The league has to love all this leverage its manufactured.
    What a great Racket for all 32 rich-white-guys.

    w
    v

    #16748
    Avatar photoZooey
    Moderator

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Winnbrad wrote:</div>
    So it seems what Stan needs to do is convince 31 rich white guys, and the Green Bay Packers, that he isn’t a “rogue agent”.

    24 rich white guys, not 31.

    w
    v

    23 because he’s already one.

    #16750
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>wv wrote:</div>

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Winnbrad wrote:</div>
    So it seems what Stan needs to do is convince 31 rich white guys, and the Green Bay Packers, that he isn’t a “rogue agent”.

    24 rich white guys, not 31.

    w
    v

    23 because he’s already one.

    Are you questioning my Algebra?

    w
    v

    #16754
    Avatar photoInvaderRam
    Moderator

    If the league approved a Spanos move,
    and Spanos had a stadium deal in LA,
    what would that do to Kroenke’s leverage
    in St.Louis? He’d lose any leverage he had, yes? No?
    Would he threaten to move somewhere else? 2nd team in LA ?

    The league has to love all this leverage its manufactured.
    What a great Racket for all 32 rich-white-guys.

    w
    v

    well and that’s also the balancing act that the nfl has to do cuz they don’t want the rams going back to the ed jones dome if the chargers move to la. they want that shiny new outdoor stadium.

    31 rich white guys and 1 rich pakistani guy i believe.

    #16756
    Winnbrad
    Participant

    The more I read, the less I see of Stan’s leverage against St Louis, or the league.

    If the draconian financial penalties can really be enacted against Stan, then he’s gonna have to do one hell of a sales job to convince 23 other owners to go along with his move to LA.

    The land he bought in LA isn’t important, if St Louis comes through with a stadium deal that works. If that happens, Stan just sells the land.

    The land did force St Louis to get off its butt and get some wheels turning, though.

    I really don’t care where the Rams play, I’d just like for this whole situation to go away, and have the Rams concentrate entirely on football. They have a hard enough time winning games as it is. This moving nonsense won’t help, imo.

    #16757
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    The land did force St Louis to get off its butt and get some wheels turning, though.

    Who knows about any of it yet. Right now, one good take is as good as another.

    My only small disagreement comes with the sentence I quote. The St. Louis stadium plan was in the works for a few months. I actually think SK released the news about his own stadium plans in LA to preempt the St. Louis announcement, and to steal some of its thunder.

    #16759
    Avatar photoZooey
    Moderator

    I don’t know what this is worth.

    But I think the most glorious outcome right now for the NFL is Kroenke’s stadium. Of all the outcomes I look at right now, Kroenke’s is the sexiest.

    Does that matter?

    Well…it might.

    #16764
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    Thot this was an interesting paragraph
    from an Atlantic article waterfield posted:

    http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2013/10/how-the-nfl-fleeces-taxpayers/309448/
    October 2013
    G Easterbrook

    “….udith Grant Long, a Harvard University professor of urban planning, calculates that league-wide, 70 percent of the capital cost of NFL stadiums has been provided by taxpayers, not NFL owners. Many cities, counties, and states also pay the stadiums’ ongoing costs, by providing power, sewer services, other infrastructure, and stadium improvements. When ongoing costs are added, Long’s research finds, the Buffalo Bills, Cincinnati Bengals, Cleveland Browns, Houston Texans, Indianapolis Colts, Jacksonville Jaguars, Kansas City Chiefs, New Orleans Saints, San Diego Chargers, St. Louis Rams, Tampa Bay Buccaneers, and Tennessee Titans have turned a profit on stadium subsidies alone—receiving more money from the public than they needed to build their facilities. Long’s estimates show that just three NFL franchises—the New England Patriots, New York Giants, and New York Jets—have paid three-quarters or more of their stadium capital costs…
    ———————

    Also, LA Times article on Kroenke
    http://www.latimes.com/sports/nfl/la-sp-stadium-stan-kroenke-20150118-story.html#page=1
    By Nathan Fenno

    Those who know St. Louis Rams owner Stan Kroenke say his L.A. stadium plan is no bluff; he sees things through
    Media-shy billionaire Stan Kroenke prefers to work behind the scenes, but he’s a savvy, decisive businessman.

    In the mountains high above the Sonoran Desert in Tucson, Ariz., Al Michaels and Stan Kroenke were hiking a tough trail near a health and fitness resort.

    Michaels, a longtime sportscaster for NFL games, joked that the steep incline they faced amid the pine trees may as well have been Tucson’s Mt. Everest. He was exhausted and hoped that Kroenke wanted to turn back.

    But Kroenke, the billionaire owner of the St. Louis Rams, would not relent.

    “I think I reached the point where I didn’t care whether I was alive or died,” Michaels said about that hike. “When Stan sets out to do something, he wants to complete it.”
    Rams need to follow NFL process to move to L.A.: stadium panel chief
    Rams need to follow NFL process to move to L.A.: stadium panel chief

    Five years later, Kroenke is focusing that mind-set on an ambitious plan to build a stadium in Inglewood, which could return the NFL to the Los Angeles area after a two-decade absence. Some see the project as a ploy to get a better stadium deal in St. Louis, that L.A. is being used as leverage once again. Friends and business associates say, however, that once Kroenke decides on a course of action, he is hellbent on finishing.

    “He just doesn’t do things on a whim,” Michaels said.

    Kroenke, who declined to be interviewed for this story, is a real estate developer whose penchant for privacy draws as much attention as the business dealings that amassed a fortune Forbes estimated at $5.8 billion.

    Interviews with numerous current and former business associates describe a man who shuns headlines in favor of working behind the scenes with a restrained, methodical approach that is focused on long-term success.

    Most of them believe that the stadium project is typical of the patience Kroenke, 67, used to build his professional sports empire, gain control of millions of square feet in retail space and become the ninth-largest landowner in the U.S., according to The Land Report magazine’s annual rankings.
    lRelated Owner of St. Louis Rams plans to build NFL stadium in Inglewood

    NFL
    Owner of St. Louis Rams plans to build NFL stadium in Inglewood

    See all related
    8

    The properties include the 540,000-acre Q Creek Ranch in Wyoming’s Shirley Mountains and Screaming Eagle, the cult winemaker in Oakville, Calif., whose vintages routinely fetch more than $1,000 per bottle.

    “He plays his cards real close to the vest,” Dallas Cowboys owner Jerry Jones said. “He’s information gathering. He’s listening. He’s observing. He’s evaluating. But then make no mistake about it, there’s nothing quiet about him when he goes.”

    The extensive holdings contrast with Kroenke’s modest upbringing. As a youngster, he kept the books and swept floors at the Mora Lumber Company, a lumber yard and hardware store owned by his father in tiny Mora, Mo.

    Don’t expect Kroenke to say much about those days or, really, about anything at all. Magazine and newspaper stories over the years repeatedly cast him as “Silent Stan” and “reclusive” and “secretive.”
    Stan Kroenke, Roger Goodell
    St. Louis Rams owner Stan Kroenke, left, speaks with NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell during a break at an NFL owners’ meeting in Washington on Oct. 8, 2013. Kroenke has a reputation for staying out of the spotlight. (Carolyn Kaster / Associated Press)

    Those who have worked for Kroenke see a demanding boss with no interest in self-aggrandizement.

    “He doesn’t like people putting themselves above the team,” said David Ehrlich, former Kroenke Sports Enterprises executive vice president and chief operating officer.

    Kroenke’s distaste for attention isn’t new. In a Bloomberg Businessweek story six years ago, he recalled shooting a key free throw during a ninth-grade basketball game in front of a large crowd.

    “My knees were knocking,” Kroenke said. “I missed the free throw and was useless the whole tournament.”

    He earned a bachelor’s degree and a master’s in business administration at the University of Missouri in Columbia. He met Ann Walton, the daughter of Wal-Mart co-founder Bud Walton, in 1971 while skiing in Aspen, Colo. They married three years later. Forbes calculates Ann Walton Kroenke’s net worth — separate from her husband’s — at $5.6 billion.
    cComments
    Got something to say? Start the conversation and be the first to comment.
    Add a comment
    0

    Stan Kroenke started building his fortune through real estate in the mid-1970s, developing shopping malls and Wal-Marts. A longtime partnership with Missouri developer Raul Walters ended in 1985 with protracted litigation. Michael Staenberg was Kroenke’s partner for two decades in a company they co-founded in 1991 — To Have Fun Realty — that controlled millions of square feet in retail space. That, too, ended in multiple lawsuits.

    Staenberg declined to comment because of the ongoing litigation. Walters died in 2009.

    Kroenke’s sports ventures haven’t always gone smoothly. In 1993, he emerged from the corporate shadows as a last-minute investor for St. Louis’ bid to land an NFL expansion team. After his presentation to NFL owners and an uneasy news conference, newspaper accounts compared him to the “Droopy Dog” cartoon character, saying that dealing with the media “obviously terrifies him.”
    St. Louis Rams perhaps step toward L.A., and that raises questions
    St. Louis Rams perhaps step toward L.A., and that raises questions

    “He came out of nowhere,” longtime friend Bob Stull said. “People were trying to figure out who in the heck he was.”

    Kroenke faced another chilly reception in 2007 after he bought a minority stake in the English Premier League’s Arsenal soccer club.

    “Call me old-fashioned, but we don’t need Kroenke’s money and we don’t want his sort,” Peter Hill-Wood, then Arsenal’s chairman, said at the time.

    Kroenke didn’t respond — he’s not known for losing his temper. Four years later, he became the club’s controlling shareholder. He kept the club’s governing board in place and remained in the background. Last year, Forbes valued Arsenal at $1.3 billion.

    Kroenke acquired 40% of the Rams in 1995, the year the team moved to St. Louis from Anaheim. When he became the majority owner in 2010, some in St. Louis feared he would return the franchise to L.A.

    “I’m born and raised in Missouri,” Kroenke told the St. Louis Post-Dispatch at the time. His full name — Enos Stanley Kroenke — was inspired by St. Louis Cardinals legends Enos Slaughter and Stan Musial.

    “I’ve been a Missourian for 60 years,” Kroenke continued. “People in our state know me. People know I can be trusted. People know I am an honorable guy.”

    Kroenke is often described as “regular” and “normal.” Associates say the man with a mustache and tousled hair who wears cowboy boots with his suit doesn’t act like a billionaire.

    Ehrlich would discuss business with his boss over bison burgers at My Brother’s Bar in Denver more often than they met in conference rooms.

    Kroenke’s competitiveness is legendary among those who know him. When fly-fishing with Paul Andrews, one of his former executives, he tracks who catches what. That attitude extended to games of H-O-R-S-E and pickup basketball on the practice court of the NBA’s Denver Nuggets, one of Kroenke’s teams. The owner sank three-pointers from NBA range with little difficulty.

    “He was not joking around,” Ehrlich said. “He was a little bit intense about it . . . and in life.”

    When the NHL’s Colorado Avalanche, another of Kroenke’s teams, won the Stanley Cup in 2001, the same intensity seemed to radiate off the owner during games. He didn’t yell. But Ehrlich, sitting nearby, could feel the stress.

    Kroenke, a fitness zealot who is particular about his diet, drank from the Stanley Cup after the series win — and took ill for several weeks.

    “I think that’s the only time in his life that Stan has been sick,” Michaels said.
    Tax breaks do figure into NFL stadium plan in Inglewood
    Tax breaks do figure into NFL stadium plan in Inglewood

    The Avalanche and Nuggets are just part of Kroenke’s sports kingdom. He owns Pepsi Center, the Denver arena that the teams share with his professional lacrosse franchise, the Colorado Mammoth. He controls the regional sports network that broadcasts their games, along with those of the Colorado Rapids, his Major League Soccer team that plays at his Dick’s Sporting Goods Park in Commerce City, northeast of Denver.

    He owns a company that sells tickets for the teams. He owns Altitude Authentics to hawk club apparel.

    Kroenke also has a 12,000-square-foot penthouse at Pepsi Center, reachable by private elevator, that includes a theater, gym and unobstructed mountain views.

    One reason the L.A. stadium initiative doesn’t surprise many who know him: it’s more than a sports deal, it’s also a real estate play.
    lRelated Owner of St. Louis Rams plans to build NFL stadium in Inglewood

    NFL
    Owner of St. Louis Rams plans to build NFL stadium in Inglewood

    See all related
    8

    About 18 months ago, Kroenke met with Terry Fancher, executive managing director of Stockbridge Capital, to discuss adding a football stadium to Fancher’s Hollywood Park development in Inglewood. For one session, Kroenke brought a sandwich in a brown bag for lunch.

    Though Kroenke has not committed to moving the Rams to Southern California, this deal has opened a door out of St. Louis. A clause in the team’s 30-year lease for the Edward Jones Dome required that the stadium rank among the top eight in the NFL in several categories after 20 years. St. Louis and the Rams couldn’t agree on improvements and a neutral arbitration panel ruled in favor of the Rams’ $700-million plan in January 2013. St. Louis rejected the plan six months later, which allowed the Rams to convert the lease to year-to-year.

    Kroenke’s portfolio in L.A. includes a 9,000-square-foot home off Pacific Coast Highway in Malibu and, in 2012, he was among three finalists to buy the Dodgers.

    The first hints of the L.A. plan became public in January 2013, when Kroenke bought 60 acres of vacant land at Hollywood Park from Wal-Mart for an estimated $101 million. At the time, NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell dismissed the purchase as a routine transaction.
    cComments
    Got something to say? Start the conversation and be the first to comment.
    Add a comment
    0

    “There are no plans, to my knowledge, of a stadium development,” Goodell said.

    Fancher and Kroenke continued to work on a deal to transform the proposed mixed-use project in Inglewood into a hub of sports, retail, offices and entertainment. In late spring, Kroenke engaged HKS Inc., the firm that drew up plans for the billion-dollar AT&T Stadium that houses the Cowboys, to design the stadium.

    “This is something that’s going to be in place and in his family long after he’s gone,” said Fancher, who declined to detail terms of the partnership.

    Kroenke’s daughter, Whitney, 37, lives in L.A.; his son, Josh, 34, is president of the Nuggets and Avalanche.

    That hints at another issue Stan Kroenke faces. NFL rules bar owners from owning professional teams outside their market. He had until last December to transfer ownership of the Avalanche and Nuggets, but the league granted a one-year extension.

    Last March, eight months after the initial meeting, Fancher and Kroenke had a handshake agreement to be partners for a privately-financed stadium.

    “If he’s going to realize this opportunity, he’s not going to realize it based on emotion and short-term stuff. He looks at this as a long-term investment,” Ehrlich said.

    Don Elliman, past president of Kroenke Sports Enterprises, said: “I absolutely guarantee there isn’t a half-cocked bone about it.”

    Days after the stadium plans became public earlier this month, St. Louis proposed a new stadium that could cost up to $985 million.

    As questions swirl about the next move in L.A., Kroenke’s quiet belies the scope of what’s at stake.

    “Other people will have the ultimate say with who goes in the stadium,” Fancher said. “There are lot of things that have to happen that aren’t in Stan’s control or our control. . . . But he’s determined and he’s got the resources to do it.”

    nathan.fenno@latimes.com

    Twitter: @nathanfenno

    Times staff writer Sam Farmer contributed to this report. Los Angeles Times

    • This reply was modified 9 years, 10 months ago by Avatar photowv.
    #16765
    bnw
    Blocked

    Has not mattered for 20 years so no it doesn’t matter now.

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #16773
    Avatar photoZooey
    Moderator

    Has not mattered for 20 years so no it doesn’t matter now.

    For the last 20 years, there has been no decision to make.

    There is now.

    #16774
    Avatar photoInvaderRam
    Moderator

    I don’t know what this is worth.

    But I think the most glorious outcome right now for the NFL is Kroenke’s stadium. Of all the outcomes I look at right now, Kroenke’s is the sexiest.

    Does that matter?

    Well…it might.

    i think it is the most attractive.

    at this point it’s up to the chargers to leapfrog ahead of the rams. i also wonder if aeg now has extra incentive to cut a deal with an nfl team.

    #16775
    Avatar photoInvaderRam
    Moderator

    they also want st. louis, kroenke, aeg, roski, san diego, and los angeles all competing against each other to get the best available stadiums possible for the nfl.

    and fans get jobbed in the end no?

    #16804
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    Dunno if this one has been posted.
    w
    v

    LA Times
    Rams need to follow NFL process to move to L.A.: stadium panel chief

    January 15, 2014
    http://www.latimes.com/sports/nfl/la-sp-nfl-stadium-20150117-story.html#page=1

    Steelers owner Art Rooney II, chairman of the NFL’s stadium committee, had a simple message this week for St. Louis Rams owner Stan Kroenke, who has announced plans to build an 80,000-seat football venue in Inglewood: Not so fast.

    “There are still cards to be played,” Rooney told The Times in his first public comments since Kroenke unveiled his vision for a state-of-the-art stadium on the Hollywood Park site. “There’s still a process that has to work its way out, and we don’t know what the outcome’s going to be yet. That’s why we have league committees and approval processes.”

    Rooney’s words were measured but his message was clear that the NFL is going to make the decisions on stadiums and relocation.
    I think we’re comfortable that we could stop a team legally from moving if it didn’t go through the process,” Rooney said….see link

    #16807
    Avatar photoInvaderRam
    Moderator

    at the end of that article.

    The league has also been in negotiations with AEG about a potential deal at Farmers Field, a proposed downtown stadium next to L.A. Live. In the 20 years since the Raiders and Rams left, the NFL has fostered the idea of competing sites to get the best deal. Rooney said that continues to be the case.

    “I think next year is a time frame that I would hope that we at least go through a site-selection process and at that point are in a position where we have a site where we’d all feel comfortable putting a stadium,” he said. “Then we’d be ready to go through a relocation process where we all understand that there’s a first-class NFL stadium for a team to move to.”

Viewing 24 posts - 31 through 54 (of 54 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

Comments are closed.