Facebook argument and more thoughts on our political situation

I had an exchange on Facebook the day before yesterday that interested me above the ordinary level. And I considered posting it here, but I was held back by mixed feelings. There is something about Facebook that is intrinsically embarrassing to begin with. And getting involved in this kind of skirmish makes me feel slightly foolish – arguing with complete strangers – and, yet, as we discussed in the thread BIlly started on his media abstinence, there is something compelling about the need to try to shine reason and actual information around the world in an era when foolishness and Alternative Facts are rife. Besides which…how is it any different, really, than arguing with people here, or any other forum on the net?

Although I have been on FB for years now, it wasn’t until the primaries that I got into a daily check-in, and became active. I don’t go to FB to debate, but occasionally I get into some issue, usually with people I don’t know, who are friends of a friend, or whatever. It was encounters like this that first made me realize that stuff can be deleted. I’m not all that savvy with all the tools on FB, and it wasn’t until I went to check up on a debate that was no longer there that I realized this. Anyway, I have had a couple of arguments completely deleted by other posters, but until the other day, they were either deleted by friends of mine who took in the information I gave them and retracted their entire post, or by frustrated nutjobs who hated being challenged to name one single instance of an attempt by a Muslim to implement one single Sharia Law anywhere in the United States.

But the thread that got deleted the other day was by a Liberal, and really caught me off guard (though the signs of “why” are all there from her original post). But it is the end of the story that really had me spitting up in incredulity.

Anyway, here is the context: There was an article on my newsfeed from a FB page I had never heard of before. It wasn’t “Republicans Suck,” but that’s more-or-less what it meant, though it was different words. I don’t remember. So, anyway, the article was a fairly standard issue op-ed arguing that the Democrats need, in the wake of Trump’s victory, to push forward with the popular, progressive agenda of Sanders if they want to win back offices and revitalize the party.

In response to the article, a thread had started with the following post. I will intervene from time-to-time in italics to comment from the present moment.

Sally Baker McCarty Really hate when these know-it-alls who haven’t done anything but sit at their keyboards tell the generation that actually ended a war that we’re not Progressive enough. Can’t imagine what “truth” Bernie talked about that Hillary didn’t. And, as long as they persist in thinking Bernie would have gotten anywhere NEAR the votes Hillary did, we’ll never come together. If Bernie & his supporters want to be Democrats, they need to join and support the Party. If they don’t want to do that, they should form their own Party and quit using ours as their soapbox.
Like · Reply · 5 · 12 hrs

Hide 16 Replies

Now, there is much to love about this post, but I wasn’t drawn into responding yet because – you know – where would you even start with that? But then I continued reading through the following exchange:

Dean Marks Point taken. The thing to think about is that the millennials are more progressive. Without them, the DNC will never stand a chance. So I believe that if the DNC wants to become a party that wants to regain any control, either local or nationally, they need to move forward and start to accept more progressive views. Where has sitting still helped any Democrats hold on to or be elected. The DNC under establishment philosophy has gotten us nothing but defeat in every category in government.
Like · Reply · 12 hrs

Sally Baker McCarty Dean Marks more Progressive than WHAT? Please be specific.
Like · Reply · 1 · 12 hrs

Okay, well, NOW I’m in because there is a specific handle for conversation, and even an invitation for a response. I gladly cut in line with this:

Zooey More progressive than “single-payer will never happen.” More progressive than “$15 is too high; how about $12?” More progressive than bailing out Wall St. and leaving Main St to foreclosure. More progressive than one regime change after another. More progressive than calculated talk about the middle class without ever mentioning the poor at all. More progressive than a flippin’ windsock which is what Hillary was. And YOU don’t own the party, Sally. You don’t get to tell anybody else what belongs in the party, and what doesn’t. It isn’t YOUR party, and there is a strong movement afoot to take it back so it serves the bottom 90%.
Like · Reply · 11 hrs

Sally Baker McCarty Zooey Not so Progressive as you would admit that Bernie was a magnet for misogynist white men in the Democratic Party and for all those who think we can jump from square one to square 100. Hillary, because she is more experienced and competent than Bernie, injected some reality into the primary race and that didn’t sit well with those “I want it now.” Millennials. Those reasons — and the fact that Bernie isn’t even a Democrat — are why Bernie lost the Primary. The fact that his followers never accepted his loss (Again, “I want it and I want it now.”) was instrumental in electing Trump. (Granted there were some Millennials smart enough to see through Bernie’s spiel, but the more self-serving ones actually thought he could do what he said he could. Even HE had to know he couldn’t.) And yes, I and other Democrats who have supported our Party’s ideals for decades DO have the right to say you can’t participate in choosing our candidates unless you commit to the Party. That means supporting whomever we nominate and declaring yourself to be a Democrat. Watch us!
Like · Reply · 1 · 10 hrs

“Watch us?” What’s she going to do, throw me out of the party?

There is a lot to respond to in there, but first the thread gets a few other respondents who don’t stick around long, and I have eliminated them to stick with the main thread. Essentially, a poster came in and suggested that the argument that Bernie was a magnet for misogynist white men was typical of mainstream Dems, and that it was bad enough dealing with righties without getting this accusation from establishment Dems. Sally shouted at him that this was evidence that he himself was a misogynist, and another woman told him that Sanders has never done anything in congress.

Sally Baker McCarty “mainstream establishment?” As opposed to what? Bernie’s rainbows and unicorns brigade? Not surprised you would take offense at the misogynist comment. If you weren’t one of them, why would you care? Looks like I hit a nerve, but I wouldn’t expect you to admit it.
Like · Reply · 2 · 10 hrs

Zooey Well, I’m not committing to the party, that’s for sure. I am committed to principles, not Party. I’ll leave that to you liberals who believe your protests brought the Vietnam War to an end. In the meantime, I’m fighting for rainbows and unicorns, and I have no doubt that when progressives succeed, you will be following right behind believing you were there the whole time, cuz that’s what party loyalists do. “Misogynist Sanders supporters.” They don’t make a big enough eyeroll for that.
Like · Reply · 9 hrs

And then somebody else chimed in:

David Elliot Zooey,
Given that attitude you will be drifting in the wind for the rest of your life.

I WAS ONE OF THOSE LIBERALS who protested the Vietnam War. BY AND LARGE, those protests DID NOT stop the war.

The television coverage of the Tet Offensive began to bring the war to an end. It STILL lasted 5 more years.

Pragmatism is more important than perfection.

You had a choice on Nov 8, 2016. You could vote for HRC or you could help elect the Orange Dumpster.

WHAT THE FUCK DID YOU DO?

If you voted for HRC, then you did the best thing given the options at the time. IF NOT, you chose poorly.
Like · Reply · 1 · 8 hrs · Edited

And I don’t respond to this guy because I don’t even have a clue what “drifting in the wind” for the rest of my life means, and the rest of it is pretty much true in any event.

Sally Baker McCarty Zooey I AM a Progressive — with credentials much stronger than yours. The only way to advance one’s principles is to stand with the Party that most closely resembles them. You don’t seem to have learned that yet. And, you certainly are old enough to know better. No TRUE Progressive denies the role misogyny played in Hillary’s defeat. Operative word being TRUE.
Like · Reply · 8 hrs

Sally Baker McCarty David Elliot Agree with all you say except what you say about the protests. While I agree they’re not the only thing that ended the war. They certainly helped push the decision along — although agree that it took way too long.
Like · Reply · 8 hrs

Zooey Sally Baker McCarty Rein in the arrogance there, Sally. You have no idea what my “credentials” are, and I’m not going to argue with you about it because it’s pointless. Also, just as you don’t get to define who is in the party, you don’t get to define what a TRUE progressive is. I mean…that’s just arrogant and foolish. Secondly, if you have anything more than anecdotal evidence of misogyny from Sanders supporters, I’d love to see it. I don’t think you do. I think the Hillary Camp just screamed “Bernie Bros” incessantly, and that was evidence enough for her supporters. Here is a fact: a higher percentage of Sanders voters cast votes for Hillary in the general than Hillary supporters did for Obama in 2008. So you should just shut up about that. Hillary lost because she failed to campaign effectively in the swing states, and she failed to campaign effectively there because she took those states for granted.
Like · Reply · 7 hrs

Sally Baker McCarty Zooey I know plenty about you. I always research people I engage with on line and you would be amazed at what you can learn about a person in a short amount of time. You’re wrong about Sanders supporters voting for Clinton. There were a few percentage more Clinton voters who voted for Obama. Hillary’s campaigning was part of the problem, but misogyny was also a part. And if you want evidence, go to Bernie’s facebook page and read comments from early 2016 on. I’M not deciding who gets to be a Democrat. I — and many millions of others — think that Party loyalty is important and if you want input on our platform and candidates, you need to commit to the Party. Otherwise, be an independent and good luck with that.
Like · Reply · 6 hrs

Okay, well this bit unnerved me a bit because nobody has ever told me that they’ve researched me before, and that seems slightly – what’s the term? Psycho? – and here’s where I’m at a bit of a disadvantage because I am not completely sure how FB works. I don’t think she can see ANY of my political stuff on my FB page, though, because awhile back, I made a “group” among my friends I call “Damn Liberals” and only these particular people I hand choose can see my political posts. The general public, and friends who have shown no interest in politics, but whom I wish to remain friends with, see only the theatre jokes and other innocuous crap I post. And I doubt she found anything else out about me but that because there are about 300,000 people with my name in this country, and there isn’t anything else to find. I’ve looked. Anyway, I respond by going to her page because – you know – this is weird, and there she is with a bunch of posts with friends and regular person stuff. Nothing telling.

Zooey LOL. Okay, Sherlock, your superpower sleuthing skills have helped you learn that your progressive credentials are stronger than mine. You go cling to that old tyme religion. It’s winning you a lot of elections. Like you can’t even get the most qualified human ever to run for President elected, but that’s the fault of the people who identify as progressives, but can’t hold a candle to you, and hate women. Carry on telling people they don’t belong in YOUR party, and see if that brings up your vote tallies.
Like · Reply · 6 hrs

Sally Baker McCarty It doesn’t take Sherlock Holmes. It’s really quite easy. Your bitter, sarcastic tone reveal SO much about you. As does the fact that you have only fired back at me and not David. But, hey! You’re not a misogynist. Hillary was the first woman major Party Presidential Candidate in an election where a foreign power interfered, to what extent we’ve yet to learn. Yet she still managed to garner more votes than any candidate — man or woman — except Barack Obama. So get with the Party or don’t. I don’t really care but, as a Party, I hope we don’t sacrifice our values for the likes of people like you who are only out for themselves.
Like · Reply · 4 hrs

Okay. This is the FIFTH time Sally has gone to the “Party Uber Alles” card, something I considered a distinctly right wing characteristic. Boy, was I wrong about that. And this is the third or fourth time she has utilized her vast skill as a mindreader on me and the other poster.

Zooey Sally, I didn’t respond to David because I didn’t find anything he said to be interesting. He probably shouldn’t read into that as evidence I look down on men. Nor should you look at the fact I replied to you as evidence I look down on women. I didn’t support Clinton because I don’t like her policies. I didn’t support her husband, either, for the exact same reason. Gender and race and party are absolutely meaningless to me when it comes to politics. As I said before, I care only about principles and policies. I don’t vote for symbols. I vote for policies because policies have real effects on people. Not symbolic effects. Real effects. And, for the record, one of the principles I hold deeply is that women should be empowered equally with men which is why I supported Sanders over Clinton. He advocated $15/hour, universal health care, and cost-free higher education and Clinton did not. Now. What do you think would empower women more: increased wages, health care, and free higher education? Or a woman in the Oval Office? Cuz if you think having a woman in the Oval Office is somehow going to benefit women, I ask you to explain to me how blacks are better off now than they were before Obama was elected. And before you answer, consider the fact that #BlackLivesMatter arose in the second term of a black president. Obama did next to nothing to help blacks, and that’s exactly how much Clinton would have helped women. I am not interested in “moral” victories (such as barely losing in Kansas). I am interested in policies. Sanders was better for women than Clinton, and I dare you to name one way that that is not true. So even though you aren’t going to sacrifice for the likes of me, you can count on the fact that I am out there fighting for the likes of you.

(And that’s the end of the FB thread, so I am going to forego italicizing for the rest of the post. From here on, it’s me in present time).

This conversation had transpired over a period of about 7 hours, by the looks of it. And after this last post, I was gone for a couple of hours eating dinner and whatnot. I finally flipped open my laptop, and go to check up on this thread, and under my notifications, all the notices that I’d received replies in this thread are gone. The telltale sign of deletion. But WTF? It takes me a bit, but I find the page, and sure enough, the entire thread Sally started is gone. Anyone who starts a thread has the ability to delete an OP, and every response to that OP disappears along with it…which makes sense. But I go down to my desktop, and the tab is still open with the thread showing. I copy the entire thing and paste it elsewhere. Then I go to Sally’s FB page to see what’s happening there…AND I AM BLOCKED! Completely blocked! I get an Error Message.

Now, for those who are unfamiliar with FB (or who may better than I and could come correct what I am about to explain), there are, afaik, two ways one can handle people on FB that become a nuisance. One way to to “unfriend” them which – afaik – just means their posts won’t show up on your feed anymore, but they will still see your stuff, and you remain “friends.” I have done this to people who constantly post 12 of the “cutest kitten videos you’ve ever seen in your life” every freaking day. The other thing one can do is Block somebody. That means that the person cannot see ANYTHING on your page, and sees none of your posts, and can’t communicate with you in any way. This measure, I always assumed, was used by girls who break up with a cretin who stalks them all over Facebook to slander, harass, intimidate, and irritate them for the rest of eternity.

But Sally – whom I never before encountered in any way in my entire life – and whom I met on a webpage I’d never visited before – and whom I was unlikely to EVER encounter again on the internet after this conversation – deleted the entire thread and BLOCKED me!

Now, I find this fascinating for a lot of reasons. The first thing is…Why?

I thought about it a lot, and what I’ve settled on is that the signs were right there from the start. Party Uber Alles is a constant refrain of hers, and she makes it clear that the Sanders’ wing of the party is illegitimate, and doesn’t belong in the party. Furthermore, she holds that wing, to a large extent, as responsible for Hillary’s (and the Party’s defeat). Part of that stems from the “fact” that Sanders’ supporters are misogynists (because why else would anyone support anyone but Clinton, the Party’s Chosen One?). The other sin of the Sanders supporters is that they stole the “Progressive” mantle illegitimately. That’s why it’s important to believe she helped end the Vietnam War (her progressive “bona fides”), and to paint the progressives as naive, selfish idealists with no grasp of reality. As a young adult, I always wondered what happened to all the hippies and the counterculture people who seemed so unique in history, an enlightened generation who saw through the system, and held other values. Where did they all go? Now I know. Like Sally, they all became their mothers without noticing.

So I think up to my last post, Sally felt like she was holding her own against an infidel who ought to know better, but my last statement that argued Sanders was better for women – well – I basically just got drunk and peed into Hillary Clinton’s coffin at the funeral. I couldn’t possibly have been more offensive or sacrilegious, and – true to her word – she had to ban me from the party, and burn all the evidence that I was ever alive.

My second thought is that we have all seen this from Liberals before. They have been more exasperating over the years to discuss politics with than righties. While righties can’t tell the difference between a liberal and a leftist regardless of how many times you speak plainly to them, they at least know where THEY are standing. But liberals just don’t. For all their good intentions, they just have no idea where they stand on the spectrum. And it’s difficult to talk to them because it drives them batshit crazy to have someone on their left because their entire identity is wrapped up in being on the high ground morally, and that high ground is defined by its contrast with people to the right, so people to their left can only mean….short circuits and impossibly muddled communication. And while I am now revelling, as many people are, in the emerging civil war in the GOP, I can see this fissure in the left as well. So what are the implications of that?

And that, finally, leads back to the question of how much political conversation and information we can stand, and how much we talk about this, and to whom, and where.

I can say I’m not AS worried about a severe split on the Left. I do think I was right in my conversation with Sally that if the progressives succeed in pulling out victories in the minimum wage, universal healthcare, free education, and so on, that she will be right there believing she made it all happen. She will nevertheless always see Sanders as a misogynist, outsider, traitor, and his followers as selfish ignoramuses, and instead, she will see a straight line of liberal progress from the end of the Vietnam War to those achievements, never aware of the rightward swing of the Party that she supported her whole life. But so what? I can live with that.

I think we continue bashing away, and shedding light where we can, and changing minds that are capable of changing. The others will just follow the beacon light anyway. But progressives – and I mean TRUE progressives {wink, wink} have to focus on infiltrating the system, and taking it over. Persuading everybody is not necessary.