continuing “the trade” talk (Goff, Stafford)

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  • #128627
    Cal
    Participant

    Heck the Rams used disguised coverages expertly against Brady in the superbowl and that was the first postseason game where the Brady Patriots were held to 13 (or fewer) points since 2012. Previous to that it was 2005.

    Brady also suffered from a serious lack of talent around him. In 2019, he threw for only 24 tds compared to 40+ this year with the Bucs talented receivers.

    I found this whole part of the article from one “team source” puzzling.

    “Goff struggled to recognize coverage disguises and didn’t consistently identify coverage post snap as the play developed. When a defense ran Cover 0 with no safeties deep, his decision-making process often didn’t happen quickly enough to hit the big play.

    “As a quarterback, you can’t lose games,” a team source said. “We just needed him to manage it and do his part.””

    McVay’s plan often this year was to put the ball in Goff’s hands. I distinctly remember McVay attacking the Bears and the Bucs with Goff and the passing game. That plan worked in those two games. McVay approached the Miami game the same way, but that didn’t work at all.

    The problem for the Rams is that they don’t have anyone that truly scares defenses AND the o-line is average at best. There are NO, ZERO, pro-bowl players to place around the qb, aside from the 39 year old LT.

    Even the Lions have a couple of pro-bowl players. If you want to punish teams for blitzing or loading the box, you need a Gurley, Cooks, or Sammy Watkins to make some big plays.

    The Rams still don’t have that. And they still have an average o-line with a 33 year old qb who prides himself on being tough enough to take hits so that he can make plays down the field.

    This really seems like a bad plan for the future. Kind of like expecting John wolford to step in play like Drew Brees. I wonder what happened to the team’s excitement for “Baby Brees”?

    • This reply was modified 3 years, 9 months ago by Cal.
    #128630
    Avatar photoInvaderRam
    Moderator

    i don’t know who’s fault it is. probably a combination of both.

    i do think mcvay could have made it work. but he didn’t want to.

    we’ll see if it works.

    #128633
    Avatar photoZooey
    Moderator

    Name any starting qb you want right now and odds are great that only a couple of exceptions will not have shown signs of having some struggles in year 5.

    Kurt Warner. Marc Bulger. I don’t know. I don’t follow other teams.

    But we’re not talking about “some struggles.” Everybody has “some struggles.”

    I don’t have the ability to stack Goff side-by-side with all the other QBs and parse which bad plays are the fault of the QB for not making the right read, or for just not making an accurate throw, or were the fault of a receiver or a blocker, or just a great play by a defender, or what. What I do know is that there are reports from inside the team that are saying that Goff wasn’t “getting it.” You are taking the line that his growth was completely typical, and the problem is McVay didn’t handle him correctly. I’m taking the line that McVay didn’t handle Goff correctly, and Goff has been slow to improve. That’s from my eyeball test combined with Thiry’s and DaSilva’s reports that many people inside the Rams say so, too. Don’t make me come to Maine and set fire to dog poo on your front porch.

    #128634
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    Name any starting qb you want right now and odds are great that only a couple of exceptions will not have shown signs of having some struggles in year 5.

    Kurt Warner. Marc Bulger. I don’t know. I don’t follow other teams.

    But we’re not talking about “some struggles.” Everybody has “some struggles.”

    I don’t have the ability to stack Goff side-by-side with all the other QBs and parse which bad plays are the fault of the QB for not making the right read, or for just not making an accurate throw, or were the fault of a receiver or a blocker, or just a great play by a defender, or what. What I do know is that there are reports from inside the team that are saying that Goff wasn’t “getting it.” You are taking the line that his growth was completely typical, and the problem is McVay didn’t handle him correctly. I’m taking the line that McVay didn’t handle Goff correctly, and Goff has been slow to improve. That’s from my eyeball test combined with Thiry’s and DaSilva’s reports that many people inside the Rams say so, too. Don’t make me come to Maine and set fire to dog poo on your front porch.

    I don’t buy those reports. That just sounds like McVay going toxic instead of coaching. No one plays the way Goff did in 2017 and 2018 and then suddenly does not get it. That’s just how I feel about it. I am also not real fond of the fact that a “Rams source” said everything needed to be perfect for Goff and that was about 2019. I get annoyed when fans don’t understand what a shaky OL did to the offense in 2019…if a Rams official doesn’t understand that then I am just bummed.

    Anyway that’s honestly how I feel and yeah we see it differently.

    One quick note though–Da Silva does not have a report. All he did was cherry pick stuff from Thiry that fit his pre-conceived take. I read Da Silva as doing nothing more than selectively filtering Thiry’s stuff through his agenda. Thiry and others have real reports with real reporting.

    #128635
    Avatar photojoemad
    Participant

    In fairness to Goff… the sun doesn’t rise… the world turns

    #128636
    Cal
    Participant

    Kurt Warner. Marc Bulger. I don’t know. I don’t follow other teams.

    But we’re not talking about “some struggles.” Everybody has “some struggles.”

    Bulger threw 22 ints with 7 fumbles when he was 26 like Goff was this year. That was his fourth year in the league and first full year starting.

    The next year he threw 14 ints in only 14 games.

    The Lions and Holmes, meanwhile, seem like they are committing to Goff as they just freed up a bunch of cap space for this year by converting Goff’s 2021 salary to a bonus and pushing his $$$ onto future years of their cap.

    Aren’t you concerned that all signs point to Holmes and the Lions investing in Goff?

    You might want to save some of that dog doo for my house too.

    #128637
    Avatar photoZooey
    Moderator

    2019, imo, is accounted for by broken Gurley and broken OL.

    In any event, I hope Stafford is a quick learner. And the OL is good. And Akers stays healthy. And Jackson still has jets. And Fuller makes us forget Johnson. And Donald finally lives up to his full potential.

    #128639
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    A butterfly flaps his wings, and causes a tornado on Mars.

    Pats playing the Chiefs in the playoffs. Brady gets another
    questionable call in his favor. Chiefs lose.

    Rams and Goff have to play Pats instead of Chiefs in the super bowl.

    If that call in the chiefs/Pats game goes the other way,
    who knows where Goff and McVay would be now.

    So many things in sports are ‘like that.’ An inch here,
    a penalty there. The Saints easily could have been
    in two more Super Bowls.

    My point? Goff has already proved to ‘me’ he can win a ring.
    What he did in the big Monday Night game, and what he did
    in the Saints playoff game showed me that.

    I think Goff will have a fine career, and given the right
    cast and some luck, wouldnt surprise me a bit if he won a ring.

    The disintegration of the Goff/McV relationship was probly
    the most startling Ram player/coach disintegration I can remember.

    The coaching of Goff was mishandled and the public pre-trade treatment
    was mishandled by McSnead. I doubt if i ever feel ‘quite’ the same
    about McV or Snead. Startling lack of class by both, imho.

    Having said all that, I ‘do’ like the ‘decision’ to upgrade to Stafford.
    Thats how i think of it — as an upgrade. But we shall see.

    It better be an upgrade.

    w
    v

    #128642
    Herzog
    Participant

    You really nailed it. “Lack of class…”. Sigh

    #128655
    Avatar photoZooey
    Moderator

    Bulger threw 22 ints with 7 fumbles when he was 26 like Goff was this year. That was his fourth year in the league and first full year starting.

    The next year he threw 14 ints in only 14 games.

    The Lions and Holmes, meanwhile, seem like they are committing to Goff as they just freed up a bunch of cap space for this year by converting Goff’s 2021 salary to a bonus and pushing his $$$ onto future years of their cap.

    Aren’t you concerned that all signs point to Holmes and the Lions investing in Goff?

    You might want to save some of that dog doo for my house too.

    I have an 80lb dog, so I’m looking for more places to distribute it. You can DM your address, and I’ll bring you some.

    Anyway. I have been a defender of Goff all along. He is good enough to win a Super Bowl. But the Thiry article just rings true to me. That’s not to say that Goff couldn’t mature his way into an excellent QB, and I wouldn’t even bet against it. But I do think his disappointing progression is on him. And to me, there is just a question there. Part of Goff’s erratic play was making poor reads. That’s what people in a position to know have said. He just didn’t make reads at times.

    Why not? Some people are saying 5 years isn’t enough time. I’m inclined to think that by Year 5, he should have been better. That’s all.

    #128657
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    Part of Goff’s erratic play was making poor reads. That’s what people in a position to know have said. He just didn’t make reads at times.

    Why not? Some people are saying 5 years isn’t enough time. I’m inclined to think that by Year 5, he should have been better. That’s all.

    ========

    Staffordite

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    v

    #128670
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    Part of Goff’s erratic play was making poor reads

    I don’t buy that. I don’t even buy that his play was “erratic,” depending of course on what people mean. He did not have a season like Carson Wentz. They went 10-6 with him and won a playoff game and the offense was not what lost the game to Green Bay. He was ranked high in the league converting 3rd downs and ranked high in the redzone. He was also good against the blitz (better than Stafford actually). There were games in 2020 where they could not run the ball so they put it on him (Tampa and then the first Arizona game, and in those games he threw the ball 88 times…they won those games by passing alone).

    He had 4 bad games in 2020 and in all 4 games the OL got dominated. Yet he also came through in some games where the OL got dominated (2nd half of the Jets game, the Green Bay game). To me Goff’s biggest flaw is that he presses when the offense is getting beat up. Instead of taking the sack, or running with the ball, or throwing it away, or sliding when he did run, or getting out of bounds, he presses to make plays and to compensate for things falling apart around him. As often as not it’s the wrong thing to do.

    I think a lot of the criticism of his play in 2020 was hyperbolic.

    I also don’t think he was playing to his full potential in 2020 but then this was a qb whose head coach was F-ing with his confidence. McV was getting to the point where he was being disdainful in public about Goff. That’s toxic coaching. I can’t think of too many situations where a qb does play to his full potential when the disconnect between qb and coach is that big.

    I think anyone who reads the Thiry article and concludes the issue is Goff only read half the article. Because the article as a whole does not support that conclusion. You don’t have a 67% completion rate and a qb rating in the 90s if you can’t read defenses.

    #128684
    Avatar photojoemad
    Participant

    Goff’s toxic final days as a Ram.

    #128939
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    #129048
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    #129234
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    “Jared Goff is a Ram right now,” Snead said. “So, what’s the date? January 26.”

    Compare that to this:

    #130200
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    from http://hce1947.blogspot.com/2016/12/terry-bradshaw-and-chuck-noll-rocky.html

    No real quarterback coach or OC

    Noll hired his former Browns teammate and 18-year QB Babe Parilli as quarterback coach for Bradshaw in 1972. After two years, Parilli either quit or was fired. That story is not clear.

    The effect of Parelli’s leaving on Bradshaw was devastating. “Babe Parilli was my one and only quarterback coach,” Bradshaw told Steelers.com earlier this year. “I didn’t have an offensive coordinator or quarterback coach. One year I had Babe Pirelli [sic] and he did to me what they did to me in college. He picked me up and encouraged me. I flourished under his knowledge because he played so many years in the NFL and shared it. Babe Parilli is someone whose name is never mentioned.”

    Chuck became the quarterbacks coach

    As Zimmerman noted, “Two years later Parilli was gone, and Noll took over the job himself.”

    That was not a very bright move for the future Super Bowl coach. First, Chuck knew nothing about offense. Second, he knew even less about coaching quarterbacks.

    Noll played some offense as a guard with the Cleveland Browns, but he knew little about offense itself. His entire time as an assistant coach was on the defensive side of the ball. He was Don Shula’s defensive coordinator for the Baltimore Colts when the Steelers hired him in 1969.

    Why did he do that? Why not hire a good offensive coordinator who was also a QB coach? It was devastating not just on Bradshaw but on the other quarterbacks, Terry Hanratty and Joe Gilliam, who had been drafted in 1974.

    Bradshaw explained to Zimmerman what it was like having Noll as his QB coach and head coach, with things being so bad that he asked to be traded. “I don’t think he handled me properly, but he didn’t know me. I wanted to be handled very personally, like I’d been in college. He could have made it a lot easier. There were times he dressed me down in front of the team; once he fined me $25 for missing a pregame meal, and I was there three minutes late. I was outside talking to one of the Steeler scouts,” Bradshaw recalled.

    “It was a rough road, a testing ground. But I think he felt I could handle it, that I was going to be the kind of championship quarterback he needed. He wasn’t going to baby-sit. I remember once going in and asking to be traded, and he said, `You’re going to be a great quarterback someday. It takes time.’ “

    #130229
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    video link: https://sports.yahoo.com/baldy-why-stafford-significant-upgrade-231939563.html

    Baldy: Why Stafford will be ‘significant upgrade’ for Rams at QB

    NFL Network’s Brian Baldinger breaks down why Los Angeles Rams quarterback Matthew Stafford will be ‘significant upgrade’ for Rams at quarterback. This game is streaming live on the Yahoo Sports mobile app, or on NFL Network

    #130361
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    #130456
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    Eisen covers a lot of relevant ground.

    #130457
    Avatar photoInvaderRam
    Moderator

    Well, the thing was is that they weren’t doing what Jared’s really good at, which is getting in the shotgun and letting him go through progressions and letting him throw the football around. He was under center, faking jet sweeps, play-action passes…

    is that actually true? career wise he’s been better under center. significantly better. and even in 2020 he was still slightly better under center.

    i think the big problem is that the running game has been not what it was.

    #130459
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    Well, the thing was is that they weren’t doing what Jared’s really good at, which is getting in the shotgun and letting him go through progressions and letting him throw the football around. He was under center, faking jet sweeps, play-action passes…

    is that actually true? career wise he’s been better under center. significantly better. and even in 2020 he was still slightly better under center.

    i think the big problem is that the running game has been not what it was.

    I think his college coach said that about him. He was being more of a good Goff loyalist when he said that then a good NFL qb analyst. JG thrived in a play action game. But his college coach was angry when he said that, he saw Jared as being mistreated and scapegoated.

    #130786
    Avatar photoZooey
    Moderator

    https://www.nfl.com/news/kyle-shanahan-to-sean-mcvay-on-matthew-stafford-trade-you-don-t-want-to-get-me-s

    When the Los Angeles Rams made the blockbuster trade for Matthew Stafford, both the quarterback and coach Sean McVay were famously in Cabo. Another key NFLer was also in the area but had a different take on the trade of his division rival: Kyle Shanahan.

    With the San Francisco 49ers milling around the possibility of trading for Stafford, Shanahan was studying up on the 32-year-old QB.

    Shanahan was recently on the Flying Coach podcast with McVay and Peter Schrager. McVay ribbed Shanahan, asking the Niners coach how he liked the Rams’ new addition.

    “You don’t want to get me started, dude,” Shanahan responded. “That was frustrating. I was in Cabo. I was studying it all. … I remember looking through it because everybody was telling me it was a possibility. Stafford’s the man. I studied him hard coming out of college, and you always play against him, so you know how good he is. But to know he might be available and to spend two weeks really watching him, Sean, yeah, he’s better than I realized. He was the man. He’s actually underrated to me. I know how good of a guy you got. I know how good he is at play-action. I know how smart he is. Not only does he just have a big arm, but he’s got touch, he knows where to go with the ball. So I was trying to get involved in it.

    “… I remember Saturday I was so stressed out and finally we talked to someone, it was seven at night, and they’re like, ‘No, nothing’s happening (with a trade) at the earliest until tomorrow, so you can finish your night.’ So I’m like, alright, I’m done. I put my phone down, talk to Mandy. I’m like, alright, ‘Let’s go out to dinner, let’s have some drinks.’ Half an hour later, my buddy calls me and is like, ‘I’m just telling ya, if you want Stafford, you need to get a hold of him right now.’ I’m like, ‘What do you mean? We just talked to people. I can sleep on this. We’ll talk to them tomorrow.’ ‘I’m just telling you, you need to talk to him right now.’ And then it was all over.”

    “If it makes you feel any better, it came together faster than I thought, too, Kyle,” McVay replied.

    “The fact I was in Cabo, man, I would have been there, and I would have made it really awkward on you two to enjoy it,” Shanahan bantered back. “You would have had to tell me to leave.”

    A couple of asides:

    Apparently, you should go to Cabo in January/February because you might bump into an NFL coach or star.
    McVay asking Shanahan about his new toy is something only good friends can get away with — “Hey, you like my new yacht? Bigger than the last one!”
    Ultimately, the Rams shipped two first-round picks and Jared Goff to Detroit for Stafford, who L.A. believes can put them over the top after sputtering the past few seasons.

    It’d been reported that the Niners were interested in trading for Stafford but never made an official offer after the bidding escalated. Shanahan lamenting all that studying on Stafford only to watch him go to a rival underscores that San Francisco intended to find an eventual replacement for Jimmy Garoppolo. Instead, they ended up trading three first-rounders for the No. 3 overall pick to snag Trey Lance.

    At least the film study Shanahan went through in Cabo won’t go to waste now that he has to face Stafford twice a year in the NFC West.

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