the OL as work in progress

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  • #22382
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    First three picks should be OLinemen.
    Then a RB in round 4.
    Then an OLineman.
    Then a QB.
    Then sign nine more UDFA OLineman.

    Though, I might be tempted to pick
    another OLineman instead of a QB,
    cause i like that Case Keenum guy from the
    Texans.

    w
    v

    #22479
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    A compactly built, light-footed pivot who elevated his draft standing after clocking sub-5.0 40 times at his pro-day workout. Has the size, power and agility to eventually compete for a starting job.

    Rhaney sounds kind of like a find doesn’t he.

    Could be. Why not.

    .

    #22579
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    My take on the OL. I THINK a lot of this is consensus. Some of it is my own repeat-fetish ideas on OL building.

    Consensus: it’s hard to name a line yet because we don’t know who they will sign, draft, or promote. Though my own preference is to move Saffold to the right side and start some kind of placeholder/ older vet for the left side.

    So with that in mind it would be:

    LOT: Robinson, LOG: [someone they sign or promote], OC [someone they draft, sign or promote], ROG: Saffold, ROT: [someone they sign like Barksdale or promote].

    Depth: rookies mixed in with developmental guys already on the roster plus maybe a surprise young “ronin” who is between teams the way Barksdale was.

    Reasoning?

    1. I think this is consensus: you don’t field a decent OL if you have a lot of rookie linemen starting. That’s why it’s hard to name a lot of OLs that ever started started 2 or more rookies.

    Consensus: drafting a lot of OL this year in an OL deep draft ain’t a bad idea. More consensus (I think): you just can’t start more than one of them. Personally it doesn’t matter to me if they are high picks or not. I think the TRUE plug and play 1st round lineman is rare. Most 1st round linemen who start as rookies struggle.

    2. Is this just me? Not consensus? I always think of the fact that the Fisher/Boudreau Rams OL has been decent when it was relatively healthy. That’s even with an average at best or even below average starter or 2.

    Looking back

    In 2013, PFF ranked the Rams OL 13th even with Chris Wms at LOG. PFF is not the Final Word but I never find them to be wildly wrong, either. Squint, and forget minor differences, and I find they are more or less in the right range.

    In 2012, the Rams OL played pretty well in the 2nd half of the season (4.3 YPC for Jackson, 4.0% sack percentage which is the best they’ve done in years, going back to the 80s.) That was in spite of starting Turner and Richardson.

    In 2014, they got banged up in the summer and then again during the season. So I don’t draw much from that group. It’s like the Monty Python lord who tried to build a castle: Everyone said I was daft to build a castle on a swamp, but I built in all the same, just to show them. It sank into the swamp. So I built a second one. That sank into the swamp. So I built a third. That burned down, fell over, then sank into the swamp.

    2012 (the 2nd half) and 2013, though, tell me anyway (don’t know if it is consensus) that if the Fisher Rams have a viable play-action offense, Boudreau manages to pull off “the sum is greater than its parts” type OL performances—when the line is at least relatively healthy.

    Incidentally, speaking of the rookies issue, off the top of my head, I don’t think I have ever seen a Boudreau line that started 2 or more rookies. If memory serves, the most we have ever seen from him, going back years, is starting 1 rookie (like Khalif Barnes in Jacksonsville or Baker in Atlanta or Setterstrom in the 2nd half of 2006).

    3. So….IMO AND also maybe consensus, if the Rams OL plays well this year, it will be because (a) they sign someone or 2, possibly including Barksdale, and (b) they play 1 or 2 of their developmental guys–guys already on the roster–even if it’s as 1-year placeholders (or for all we know one of them breaks out and becomes a fixture, like Rhaney or Jones.)

    It’s not just that they probably WILL do that, it’s that they CAN do that, ie. they can do it and pull it off. That to me (and maybe not consensus?) is the Boudreau Factor. Or, as it’s known among the ivy league types, Le facteur de Boudreau.

    ..

    #22580
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    2. Is this just me? Not consensus? I always think of the fact that the Fisher/Boudreau Rams OL has been decent when it was relatively healthy. That’s even with an average at best or even below average starter or 2…”
    =======================

    Yes, i’d say they have been “decent” when healthy.
    But a ‘decent’ OLine is only good enough if you are the Seahawks or GSOT
    or have a front seven like the Giant teams had, etc, etc.

    Overall, i think maybe you have been a little more impressed with the ‘Healthy
    Ram Olines’ than moi. Maybe. I dunno.
    Minor differences, between die-hard Ram-fanatix.

    As far as starting two Rookies on the Oline — I dunno. Obviously,
    if they do it, it would be unprecedented for Fisher/Boudreau. But
    this could be the year it happens. If it happens i guess it would
    mean they aint happy with what the young players they’ve been developing.

    Can these people ever, finally, field a strong, healthy, better-than-‘decent’
    Offensive Line? Year 4. We’ll see.

    The Rest of the team looks to have playoff-level-talent.
    The DLine makes me smile. Looking forward to seeing them swarm.

    w
    v

    • This reply was modified 9 years, 8 months ago by Avatar photowv.
    #22582
    Avatar photoInvaderRam
    Moderator

    2. Is this just me? Not consensus? I always think of the fact that the Fisher/Boudreau Rams OL has been decent when it was relatively healthy. That’s even with an average at best or even below average starter or 2…”
    =======================

    Yes, i’d say they have been “decent” when healthy.
    But a ‘decent’ OLine is only good enough if you are the Seahawks or GSOT
    or have a front seven like the Giant teams had, etc, etc.

    Overall, i think maybe you have been a little more impressed with the ‘Healthy
    Ram Olines’ than moi. Maybe. I dunno.
    Minor differences, between die-hard Ram-fanatix.

    As far as starting two Rookies on the Oline — I dunno. Obviously,
    if they do it, it would be unprecedented for Fisher/Boudreau. But
    this could be the year it happens. If it happens i guess it would
    mean they aint happy with what the young players they’ve been developing.

    Can these people ever, finally, field a strong, healthy, better-than-‘decent’
    Offensive Line? Year 4. We’ll see.

    w
    v

    i think if robinson pans out. makes the expected progress this year. which i fully expect him to do.

    and if the rams can hit on one offensive lineman. just one. in this draft. not saying they should draft just one. but if they can hit on just one.

    and if the rams can sign barksdale.

    this offensive line could be the best they’ve had in awhile. they’ve got youth and potential on their side. but again. robinson has to be the real deal. barksdale has to be re-signed. and they really got to hit on one offensive lineman in this draft. like they hit on donald last year at defensive tackle.

    #22583
    Avatar photoInvaderRam
    Moderator

    me personally? at this point i want cameron erving. if i’m remembering correctly, he didn’t start playing offensive line until his sophomore year at fsu. and didn’t play center until this last year. so much potential still there. you start him out at guard. and in the future, you have your starting center. who has flexibility to slide out to either guard spot. and maybe even right tackle in an emergency situation.

    robinson
    saffold
    barnes/jones
    erving
    barksdale

    i think that’s a winner right there.

    even draft a couple more offensive linemen to develop.

    #22584
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    Overall, i think maybe you have been a little more impressed with the ‘Healthy
    Ram Olines’ than moi.

    i think if robinson pans out. makes the expected progress this year. which i fully expect him to do.

    and if the rams can hit on one offensive lineman. just one. in this draft. not saying they should draft just one. but if they can hit on just one.

    WV: it’s about time we got into REAL internet posting around here. And that, of course, means…hypermagnifying small differences. w

    Yes, it’s true, I am more impressed than you with their “okay” lines. Those lines have been able to take it to both Seattle and SF in their playoff years.

    But either way, when I talk about fielding another line like that, I mean as part of an evolution that works in good 2014 draft picks down the road. I don’t see a 2014 draft pick dramatically turning this year’s OL into something more exalted and sublime.

    invader: IMO. I think what you describe reaches Full Flower next year, not this year.

    #22905
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    from off the net

    1st Rounder

    People are overrating Zack Martin’s impact. Murray had a higher yards per carry average the season prior to Martin’s arrival (5.2 vs. 4.7) with a declining 36 year old Brian Waters (5 games) and Mackenzy Bernadeau (11 games) at Martin’s current spot being the only personnel change on the OLine. And they still had a top rated offense and scored a buttload of points prior to Martin’s arrival.

    The difference this past season had FAR more to do with the team’s re-dedication to running the football and Murray staying healthy 16 games. Not the addition of Martin.

    In fact I can’t help but to grow tired of the OLine or bust mentality as if it’s the whole key to success on offense.

    I’ve watch the Titans go overboard to build a great OLine by adding an expensive top rated, young, free agent guard (Andy Levitre) and the #10 overall draft selection (Chance Warmack) to a line which featured an All-Pro LT (Michael Roos) and good RT (David Stewart) and the offense still stunk out loud. The following season they even used the #11 overall selection on OT Taylor Lewan and the smell on offense remained and remains, but nobody talks about them when calling for this OLine build up using a 1st rounder.

    Meanwhile the starting OG in the Super Bowl this year were two undrafted FAs, a 7th Rounder who played DT in college, and a 1st Round OT who moved inside because he could hack it at OT.

    QB and Offensive Coordinator. That’s the key.

    #22916
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    from off the net

    BonifayRam

    There were a ton of injuries & health issues going on with our 4 centers very early in 2014.

    Its always been my position since last year that Snead has positioned the team well enough at the center post with Tim Barnes, Barrett Jones & Demetrius Rhaney. The team just did not need nor did it have any real reason to go out & overspend on a UFA. I never saw any significant upgrade between Stefen Wisniewski & a healthy Tim Barnes.

    I will grant that Tim Barnes 2014 season performance through-out TC & pre season while working as the first center was not what I had seen in pre seasons past 2012 & 2013. But we have learned since then that Barnes was far from being 100% early thru late season of 2014. It should say something that TB remained at his post hurting while Scott Wells(illness), Barrett Jones(back surgery) & later Rhaney (knee/IR) all had their health issues.

    As it stands now I see zero need at this time to add a UFA center to this team & prefer to ride with what Paul Boudreau {PB}had prepared & set at the table at center for the Rams team in 2015 season.

    Rams do have 3 youthful centers ready to go currently, when the dust settles & PB is set as to which of the 3 will start…then the other non starting centers reserves will be tasked into heavy work at other needed OL positions. If as I suspect Barnes will win the starting OC post then Jones & Rhaney will play important roles early. Rhaney has played started at both OG & OC in college. So he could add to the depth at OG besides reserve OC.

    I also feel that Brandon Washington may surprise us if he is left in at Left OG post. Not saying he is starting material here but will be a decent reserve at that post. PB has been grooming him now for 3 season & BW is now going into his 4th season with PB.

    Looks to me that the core OL reserve cadre is in decent condition with only one serious need being a reserve OLT or swing OT. The real bona fide concerns are in the starting OL where a upgrade in talent is the need at OG.

    #23039
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    from off the net

    blueboys69

    Here’s some nuggets I’ve heard in recent days from a couple of different sources..

    Barksdale is still a possibility but Rams feel like they could upgrade in the draft.

    The Rams like two offensive linemen in this draft that fit that top 10 range and one could slide in there. But, another source told me today the Rams are inquiring about a trade up (maybe as high as 3) for a certain Hawaiian. You have Foles, and a pretty solid QB class next year. I like Mariota, but not sure how you would use in this offense. Anyway if that happens expect Barksdale to come back.

    From what I’ve been told, they feel like they have the starting center on the roster right now. Some in the draft could happen and someone could fall in their laps, but the closer we get the more I think OT or OG in the 1st or 2nd round. And judging how round 1 plays out, maybe both by round 3.

    From what I hear, they like Erving but he’s in that gray area where even trading back might be still too high. One of my favorite prospects but no team is drafting with any notion to ever move him back outside again. He got moved inside by one of the best college oline coaches in the country. After starting there the year before and he was replaced by a redshirt freshman who played every bit as well as he did. He excelled at center and I think he will continue to grow there.

    I don’t mind the idea of a 1st rounder at right tackle. Mainly, because the new CBA makes that much more affordable than it use to be. If they were to draft Peat and he was paid similar money and based on last year’s RT salaries he’s coming in as the 19th highest paid RT in the league. I don’t think it is a league anymore where you can just have one exceptional tackle and another a decent one on the other side. If you can manage to get bookends, you do it.

    Also, it’s worth noting that these back ups like Washington, Barnes/Jones have been here from a little while. And, while they haven’t started they do address continuity.

    Blalock was coached by Boudreau and plays guard. I’d rather pay Dan Connolly to come home after being the Pats Captain last year than to pay Joe and give him a new position. Not too mention there are some extremely polished guards in this class in Cann and Tomlinson.

    #23072
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    blueboys69

    From what I’ve been told, they feel like they have the starting center on the roster right now. Some in the draft could happen and someone could fall in their laps, but the closer we get the more I think OT or OG in the 1st or 2nd round. And judging how round 1 plays out, maybe both by round 3.

    some more on this, ie. roster guys possibly developing …

    ..

    from off the net

    CoachO

    Offensive linemen routinely take a couple of years to develop into quality players. There are many more 3rd & 4th year players turning into quality starters than “plug & play” impact players in years one and two. While most fans tend to under value guys they don’t know much about, IMO, if this coaching staff wasn’t comfortable with guys that are still here, it would have been very easy to let them go as well. At some point, guys who they have chosen to keep around for the 3rd and 4th year, will show why. As I said, I think there are a whole lot more cases of players such as Barnes who entering his 4th year develop into a solid NFL player, than can be made when talking about the “plug and play” success stories.

    For example Washington has obviously shown them something to still be here. He missed a lot of training camp last year, but the first day back, he was inserted immediately into the mix. I will be the first to admit, he looked much improved over his first training camp here. So, at least for me, if he improves over what I saw last year, he could be a shining example of developing.

    Saying that drafting Barrett Jones was a mistake because he was still recovering from his foot injury just doesn’t make sense to me, unless people who are saying that somehow expected him to be an immediate “plug and play” addition. IMO, they never planned on his first year being anything more than a “red-shirt” year, and they would and could develop him. Last year’s back injury did more to delay his progress than the foot injury coming out. It was the back injury from LAST YEAR that has hindered his progress. He was rendered totally inactive for 10 weeks and was hardly close to being in game shape even when he was activated in late October. And based on early reports, he is bigger and stronger and HEALTHY reporting to the team workouts this week.

    There is a huge difference between a player who cannot play due to legitimate injuries (B. Jones) and someone who isn’t able to get on the field because of a lack of talent (Givens).

    Barnes can and has played Guard. So has Barrett Jones. That they didn’t use them, should only exaggerate the point that they just weren’t available. Just run down the list of players who ended up on the injured list at one point or another: Scott Wells (infection, elbow injury); Barrett Jones (back surgery); Tim Barnes (pinched nerved, shoulder injury, bruised ribs); Demetrius Rhaney (knee injury – IR); Jake Long (ACL – IR) Rodger Saffold (shoulder injury); Mike Person (shoulder); Brandon Washington (missed 3 weeks in training camp). Mike Person was the #10 man on the depth chart and he was pushed into duty due to all of the injuries. Plus players such as Jones, Washington, Barnes and Rhaney all offer a lot of versatility in that they ALL can play multiple positions.

    When they signed Scott Wells, he was coming off a ProBowl season. Wells wasn’t injured when they signed him. He had a MINOR procedure to clean up his knee. He was ready to go in game one. His knee had nothing to do with his broken foot. His knee wasn’t the reason he broke his foot in the 1st half of the 1st game of the season. Prior to that, he had been a model of consistency for the Packers in terms of durability. IMO, it’s a revisionist approach to second guess the signing based on his “being injury prone”.

    It’s quite subjective to say that Wells has been bad for the last two years, when in fact, he was pretty good when healthy. There in lies the biggest issue with Scott Wells. When he came back from the broken foot in 2012, he played well, as did the entire unit at that point. When he was on the field in 2013, he played “well enough”. He missed the last 4 games, and Barnes stepped in.

    Admittedly, at the time, Tim Barnes was not ready. Physically, he wasn’t strong enough. But that all changed when he came back to training camp LAST YEAR. I have posted this in a few other threads, all the talk was about how Barrett Jones had reshaped his body, and gotten stronger. But, the more noticeable change, was in Tim Barnes. The day he stepped onto the practice field, he “looked” the part of a legitimate NFL Lineman. He had a very good training camp. But being the last man standing , so to speak, (Wells recovering from the tick bite, Jones having back surgery, and Rhaney being a raw rookie), Barnes took 2 out of every 3 reps in camp for the first 3 weeks. As he became more dinged up, (pinched nerve in his neck), and with the return of a now undersized Scott Wells, they moved forward with the plan was to have the veteran presence on the field.

    That being said, one has to assume they will add someone early in the draft to throw in the mix, and round out the unit heading into the OTAs and Training Camp. And until Barksdale and/or Blaylock sign elsewhere, I would think they remain part of the equation moving forward.

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