Celebrating Bernie Sanders' Victory in NH

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  • #38795
    Mackeyser
    Moderator

    Hey all. While my phone may not appreciate this site much, I missed you all too much to stay away. Hope you’ve all been well.

    I said many months ago that I was supporting Sanders this time and going with my heart and not doing the “calculating” thing.

    I’m continually amazed at how many others are gravitating to Bernie Sanders on a daily basis.

    Anyway, as of right now in the New Hampshire Primary, he’s up by 22 points with 92% of precincts reporting and he’s driving record turnout and he’s beating Obama’s record for online donations which were conventionally thought to be Joe DiMaggio-esque in how long the record was expected to stand especially post Citizens United.

    Anyone else “feelin’ the Bern”?

    • This topic was modified 8 years, 7 months ago by Mackeyser.

    Sports is the crucible of human virtue. The distillate remains are human vice.

    #38797
    bnw
    Blocked

    Not at all a fan of Bernie but the slogan Feel the Bern is the best candidate slogan ever.

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #38803
    wv
    Participant

    What do you think about this question Mack — Bernie Sanders is basically, essentially saying exactly the same things Ralph Nader was saying for decades.
    And yet Ralph always got less than ten percent of the vote
    in each state he ran in (I ‘think’ thats right, yes?).

    So, why is it Voters are voting for Bernie now, but they
    wouldnt vote for Ralph ? Same policies.

    Only differences I can see between Bernie and Ralph are,
    Bernie is Jewish, and his policies on Israel are different
    than Ralphs.

    Any thots?

    PS — I still dont think Bernie has a chance in hell of
    beating the Machine and Hillary.

    w
    v

    • This reply was modified 8 years, 7 months ago by wv.
    #38815
    wv
    Participant

    PS — Mack have you watched this? Best of Enemies. Vidal and Buckley

    #38819
    waterfield
    Participant

    Sanders supplies me with answers to the question what would you like to see as a goal but gives me nothing when the follow up question is “how would you do that”. I would not bet my mortgage on him as the nominee since NH is essentially an all-white state. When you add in the minority (blacks and latinos) into Clinton’s camp she is still the favorite. I don’t see that group of people running towards Sanders.

    As far as WV’s question my opinion is that Nader’s true focus was on the environment while Sanders is on the economy and battling the 1%. I think most people are more concerned about the latter than the former-or at least put it at the top of priorities.

    #38820
    zn
    Moderator

    Good to see Mack and Waterfield posting. Join us more often.

    I think Nader was a well-known demonized bad guy, and Sanders an unknown quantity.

    Plus of course Sanders is a democratic party candidate, and Nader a 3rd party outside (ie. I refer to the way the party system works, I am not choosing sides).

    #38829
    Mackeyser
    Moderator

    Well, Waterfield, it’s a little frustrating when folks say that he says he’ll do something, but not how. Just a little, mind you.

    That’s just beyond not true. If anything, Bernie’s beating a long dead horse so much so that his audiences repeat his speeches back to him almost with a Rocky Horror Picture Show-esque quality to it.

    Free College: This is a misnomer. Bernie has said that PUBLIC Colleges and Universities would be free and that this would be paid for with a transaction tax on Wall Street. Conservatively, the transaction tax right now more than pays for this. Now, is this legislation? Of course not. There would be TONS of details to be worked out likely including things like a means test (the trope of not letting Donald Trump’s kids go to school for free), reining in the massive building boom on Public University campuses, and other issues relating to the COST of education such that the government doesn’t find Public College becoming another entitlement program. This is actually a HUGE idea and critically important and why much smaller economies are able to compete with us when our scale can’t be brought to bear. The money that doesn’t become a mortgage on a person’s future success instead goes straight into the economy, from home-ownership to cars and clothes and movie tix and umpteen services. There is currently over a TRILLION dollars of our economy right now tied up in student debt that would be a massive jump start to the economy if that debt weren’t there. Massive maybe isn’t a big enough word… But the answer to HOW is by employing a transaction tax on financial instruments. For casual investors who are in IRAs, 401ks and long term investment instruments, the tax would be negligible. For agencies who trade millions of stocks per minute and often manipulate the market… well, they’ll actually have to pay. It’s a reasonable cost of doing business.

    And that’s just one of many points. No candidate can lay out enough detail that it could compete with legislation because that’s not feasible (unless they’ve already done that in the course of their former duties). Moreover, it will always be necessary for further details to be hammered out in the various committees so it wouldn’t make any sense to have that level of detail when the various committees would just make tons of changes to the fine details, anyway.

    I’m not exactly a Bernie Sanders spokesperson, but I listen when I can and I’m happy to answer any policy questions anyone has that I know he’s answered.

    Other than Medicaid for All, I don’t think he’s not given a HOW answer to any topic unless it’s not appropriate (like no one can give an answer to “how will you defeat ISIL/ISIS?” when the nature of their existential threat morphs as rapidly as it has). And I don’t think a single HOW answer for transitioning to Medicare for All works on the stump. That would be a “devil’s in the details” kinda thing where it could be great or could suck horribly because most of it would be issues of health policy and logistics and hoping to avoid unintended circumstances.

    One of the big differences between Nader and Sanders is that Sanders is actually talking about HOW he’d do it and he’s done the FIRST, most honest part… that is that you simply cannot just elect ANYONE and expect ANYTHING to get done in the current climate of money in politics.

    I doubt Sanders wins South Carolina. In fact, I expect him to lose by around 16 points, give or take. But considering he’s down by almost 40 right now, the idea that he can close more than 20 points in less than 10 days will show that he needs very little time to convince people of the validity of his message.

    Sports is the crucible of human virtue. The distillate remains are human vice.

    #38842
    bnw
    Blocked

    That means nothing without good paying jobs after college to be had.

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #38846
    waterfield
    Participant

    I don’t question the “validity” of his message. It’s my message as well. However I believe he is a one pony show. I’m no Clinton fan but his all reminds me of Nader’s run that put you know who in office which led to the outbreak of terrorism throughout the world following the downfall of Hussain. I hear nothing from Sanders on this other than he never voted for the war. Fine but what does he intend on doing NOW if he’s President. My question is the same as it was to my Nader friends -would you rather have Gore as president or George W.? Today it’s would you rather have Clinton or Trump/Cruz ? That’s a far different question than who do you like from all the candidates.

    #38864
    bnw
    Blocked

    Today it’s would you rather have Clinton or Trump/Cruz ? That’s a far different question than who do you like from all the candidates.

    Trump!

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #38878
    Mackeyser
    Moderator

    Well at the debate last night Bernie went full professor like a boss and actually brought up Mossaddegh in ’53 and how Kissinger was the WORST Secretary of State maybe ever.

    As to what to do NOW about existential threats, no candidate can give a full answer without full information.

    Remember, ISIS/ISIL was NOT the existential threat it is now when President Obama took office, but it became one once again due to the unintended consequences of our belief in regime change (a point Bernie just hammered home in the debate).

    In retrospect it’s not close. I’d much rather have had Gore. Bush was a foreign policy disaster of epic proportions. We spent nearly 4 TRILLION dollars so that Osama Bin Laden could accomplish his goal of fundamentally changing our way of life. Galactically stupid doesn’t go far enough.

    As for a direct answer of what he would do now, he would engage the region, but not in the antagonistic way Clinton and the Republicans want to. There is very little separating Clinton and the Republicans other that the crazies that want to start WW3 and bomb Iran. He’s talked about getting more countries in the region involved in relief efforts, directly involved in fighting ISIL and in securing the region.

    I think the biggest mark in his favor is that when the next threat comes that we haven’t foreseen, he’s shown the best judgment of any of the candidates both with respect to short and long term answers and consequences.

    Trump is just a more coherent version of Sarah Palin which isn’t saying much and Ted Cruz would be dangerous for significant populations including LGBT and there is so much disconnect between the utopia he envisions and the dystopia he’d begin to create that it’s scary.

    Sports is the crucible of human virtue. The distillate remains are human vice.

    #38884
    bnw
    Blocked

    Trump needs to come out strongly against the abuse of the H-1B visa program in support of US jobs and it is game over. You can already see the move in the works for a brokered convention and Bush hanging around to be the nominee of compromise.

    Similarly Bernie can’t stop the Clinton machine from screwing him out of the nomination. Lots of Iowas to go.

    The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.

    Sprinkles are for winners.

    #38886
    waterfield
    Participant

    Mack: I get the love for Bernie. I do. Of all those running for President -Republicans and Democrats-he would be the only one I would ever invite over for drinks and dinner. He is so genuine and loveable he would be a wonderful guest and conversationalist. OTOH I would not have wanted LBJ as a dinner guest since I wouldn’t know what he was saying was truth or not. But in times of crisis I would want him to lead as opposed to Sanders. But I do get the lover for the latter. I share it.

    #38893
    nittany ram
    Moderator

    Mack: I get the love for Bernie. I do. Of all those running for President -Republicans and Democrats-he would be the only one I would ever invite over for drinks and dinner. He is so genuine and loveable he would be a wonderful guest and conversationalist. OTOH I would not have wanted LBJ as a dinner guest since I wouldn’t know what he was saying was truth or not. But in times of crisis I would want him to lead as opposed to Sanders. But I do get the lover for the latter. I share it.

    The biggest crises facing us today pertain to the environment. I can’t think of any candidate running today who has addressed that issue as much as Bernie. No one else is even talking about it.

    #38902
    wv
    Participant

    The biggest crises facing us today pertain to the environment. I can’t think of any candidate running today who has addressed that issue as much as Bernie. No one else is even talking about it.

    I agree with this.

    If you believe that the current system is indeed
    a Biosphere-Killer, then, among the Dems and Reps,
    there’s only one candidate worth voting for.

    Now, if you wanna expand outside the Dem/Rep
    spectrum there’s Jill Stein, etc.

    Hillary will win. Rubio will win. The biosphere-killing
    machine will continue on. Like the terminator.
    Because of the power of
    cultural hegemony.

    Have a nice day,
    and bury lentils
    in your back yard. 🙂

    w
    v

    #38912
    Mackeyser
    Moderator

    I appreciate Bernie because of his stance on the issues that matter and because I truly believe that he has no personal ambition to be President, but no one else is willing to solve these critical problems in a real way.

    He sees many of these issues, Climate Change, Citizens United, mass incarceration, health care as a right as EXISTENTIAL threats to our democracy and the citizenry. Because no other candidate sees them this way (or at all), he had no other choice, but to run.

    I’m done triangulating and fucking around with the politics. Politics is pornography for polite society. Actually, there’s more boobs in politics. I’m focusing on actual policy, actual judgment, actual actions, and actual programs going forward.

    Based on that, there’s Bernie…. And there’s Hillary as a terribly distant second and mostly because there’s no serious Republicans I could listen to like maybe Buddy Roemer. Heck this crowd makes Kasich seem palatable, the same Gov Kasich who engaged in some of the most disgusting voter disenfranchisement this country’s ever seen.

    Sports is the crucible of human virtue. The distillate remains are human vice.

    #38937
    wv
    Participant

    … no one else is willing to solve these critical problems in a real way.
    He sees many of these issues, Climate Change, Citizens United, mass incarceration, health care as a right as EXISTENTIAL threats to our democracy and the citizenry. Because no other candidate sees them this way (or at all)..

    ..I’m done triangulating and fucking around with the politics.

    Based on that, there’s Bernie…. And there’s Hillary as a terribly distant second….
    ———————

    Agree, on the first part.

    On the Hillary/triangulation part? Why not vote for Jill Stein and the Green Party, Mack? Assuming that the Corporate-Machine rolls on as usual and the choice is presented as Hillary vs Rubio (or some other Rep)

    I mean, isnt voting for Hillary the ‘definition‘ of ‘triangulation’ ?

    Oddly, if i were to have to choose between
    Trump and Hillary….if that were my only choice…(and of course it aint)…
    I am not a hundred percent sure I’d pick Hillary. Trump is an odd bird.
    I’m not a hundred percent sure he’d screw the poor
    more than Hillary.

    w
    v

    #38942
    waterfield
    Participant

    Trump is essentially an unknown. But if it’s between Clinton and Cruz-which it may come down to-and knowing a little about your ideals-which I share many-I guarantee you after a year of a Cruz Presidency you will wish Ms. Clinton was there instead-by a long shot.

    Scalia died today. I doubt Obama can push through a justice. In fact I will be shocked if he does. Not this Congress.

    #38946
    Mackeyser
    Moderator

    Why not vote for Jill Stein?

    Well, because at that point, the effort to not triangulate would have failed.

    If… God Forbid, I am forced to choose between Hillary Clinton and one of the Republican candidates… then there is NO WAY IN HELL that I would embolden Republicans by giving them the White House.

    A nominal Republican in the White House isn’t just that. It’s staffers, it’s the relationship with Congress, it’s which bills get worked on and go to the WH to be signed.

    It’s SUPREME COURT JUSTICES!!!

    So, there’s no way with me living in the battleground state of FL that I’d let a Republican nominee have a chance.

    The Green Party is failing to make its case between elections that they are a viable electoral alternative and there’s no reason why Jill Scott or anyone else should become the next Ralph Nader and siphon progressive votes in a binary system that doesn’t allow for coalitions thus allowing for conservatives to take charge.

    At that point, it’s not so much triangulation as the basic life math that every functioning public citizen should know…

    Sports is the crucible of human virtue. The distillate remains are human vice.

    #38947
    zn
    Moderator

    Why not vote for Jill Stein?

    Well, because at that point, the effort to not triangulate would have failed.

    If… God Forbid, I am forced to choose between Hillary Clinton and one of the Republican candidates… then there is NO WAY IN HELL that I would embolden Republicans by giving them the White House.

    A nominal Republican in the White House isn’t just that. It’s staffers, it’s the relationship with Congress, it’s which bills get worked on and go to the WH to be signed.

    It’s SUPREME COURT JUSTICES!!!

    So, there’s no way with me living in the battleground state of FL that I’d let a Republican nominee have a chance.

    The Green Party is failing to make its case between elections that they are a viable electoral alternative and there’s no reason why Jill Scott or anyone else should become the next Ralph Nader and siphon progressive votes in a binary system that doesn’t allow for coalitions thus allowing for conservatives to take charge.

    At that point, it’s not so much triangulation as the basic life math that every functioning public citizen should know…

    On this, I am more in Mack’s camp than WV’s. Fwiw.

    For the reasons Mack stated.

    #38950
    Mackeyser
    Moderator

    I’ll say this about the “horserace”…ugh.

    If Trump wins South Carolina, which it seems he just may and by more than 15 pts over Cruz, then I just may run the table come Super Tuesday and he’ll be the nominee, even if he doesn’t have the all of the delegates come the Republican National Convention in Cleveland.

    That said, what’s frustrating is that Dems say Hillary is “more electable”, but in EVERY SINGLE national poll, Trump beats or ties Hillary… ,but Sanders just CRUSHES Trump. It’s not close, something like 12-14 points. And electorally speaking, Sanders keeps New York whereas we’re left to wonder if Trump brings New York into play with Clinton. That would be… HUGE. (sorry)

    Secretary Clinton will go on the offensive about the court and women’s rights. And she should. However, Bernie will hit even harder about Citizen’s United and the chance to actually make a difference systemically on all issues and since he’s IN the Senate, he’ll have a front row seat for the circus and he’ll be able to make speeches on the Senate Floor regarding nominees, a place where Secretary Clinton can’t go.

    Sports is the crucible of human virtue. The distillate remains are human vice.

    #38951
    Zooey
    Moderator

    Yeah. Supreme Court matters.

    And Ted Cruz has already tweeted that he wants to stall the replacement for Satan until the next president is in office.

    And maybe if it’s Hillary, she can just send Obama to the Supreme Court.

    #38957
    Mackeyser
    Moderator

    Funny. If there was a Republican President, they’d want Scalia replaced immediately.

    Politics is so damned transparently without honor, code or even a shred of dignity or respect.

    That’s why I say it’s pornography for polite society. Actually, I think watching penises enter various orifices is far less obscene that so much of what occurs in what we call the “Political Arena”.

    Far. Less. Obscene.

    Sports is the crucible of human virtue. The distillate remains are human vice.

    #38961
    Zooey
    Moderator

    Funny. If there was a Republican President, they’d want Scalia replaced immediately.

    Politics is so damned transparently without honor, code or even a shred of dignity or respect.

    That’s why I say it’s pornography for polite society. Actually, I think watching penises enter various orifices is far less obscene that so much of what occurs in what we call the “Political Arena”.

    Far. Less. Obscene.

    You know, I might just be seeing what I want to see.

    But as I am watching this election cycle, I think I am seeing that the under 30 set is more savvy than we give them credit for. I think they see the transparency. I think they see that the Republicans are calling for holding off on Scalia’s appointment for exactly what it is.

    Maybe…just maybe…we are of an older school that has always been too polite about calling out hypocrisy. And the Twitter generation just isn’t.

    I don’t know.

    What I do know is that it is February. And calling for the country to wait a YEAR before replacing a justice on the basis of “wait and let the people have a say as to the direction of the country” is transparently ridiculous.

    So the real question, it seems to me, is what is the end game? What happens if Obama nominates somebody in a couple of weeks, and the Republicans tie it up? If they can’t make a case against the nominee, and just fight on the principle that the country oughta wait…I think that’s disaster for Republicans.

    #38964
    Mackeyser
    Moderator

    Well, if they do, they’ll only be making the case for Bernie Sanders… All the way to the White House.

    And who do they want appointing the Justice? President Obama or a possible President Sanders?

    Sports is the crucible of human virtue. The distillate remains are human vice.

    #38997
    wv
    Participant

    I’ll say this about the “horserace”…ugh…

    That said, what’s frustrating is that Dems say Hillary is “more electable”, but in EVERY SINGLE national poll, Trump beats or ties Hillary… ,but Sanders just CRUSHES Trump. It’s not close,

    Yeah, i had to turn off NPR today and yesterday
    because their ex-purts (cokie roberts, etc) were
    all implying and inferring that Hillary was
    more “electable” than Bernie.

    NPR makes me gag, when it comes
    to “news” and politics.

    w
    v

    #38998
    wv
    Participant

    Yeah. Supreme Court matters.

    And Ted Cruz has already tweeted that he wants to stall the replacement for Satan until the next president is in office.

    And maybe if it’s Hillary, she can just send Obama to the Supreme Court.

    I loathed Scalia. With a loathing beyond loathing.
    I am not happy he’s dead,
    but i am joyful he’s off the Court,
    and in Hell. I did a little jig
    when i heard. A bob and weave.

    The man can no longer hurt poor people.

    w
    v

    #38999
    wv
    Participant

    So the real question, it seems to me, is what is the end game? What happens if Obama nominates somebody in a couple of weeks, and the Republicans tie it up? If they can’t make a case against the nominee, and just fight on the principle that the country oughta wait…I think that’s disaster for Republicans.

    Well i think yer thinkin like a Non-Republican.

    The Religious Right will see it as a holy-war — abortion.
    They will want the Reps to delay no matter what. They’ll applaud it.

    And the Money-Corporate-RightWingers will also not want
    a new justice who might roll back some of the huge
    corporate gains in the last few years. So, they wont care about ‘honor’ or ethics or any of that silly liberal bullshit.

    And the middle-grounders and the ‘undecided’ types who
    decide elections ? Well they are off playing
    video games or wondering whats on tv this week.

    w
    v

    #39012
    Zooey
    Moderator

    Well i think yer thinkin like a Non-Republican.

    The Religious Right will see it as a holy-war — abortion.
    They will want the Reps to delay no matter what. They’ll applaud it.

    And the Money-Corporate-RightWingers will also not want
    a new justice who might roll back some of the huge
    corporate gains in the last few years. So, they wont care about ‘honor’ or ethics or any of that silly liberal bullshit.

    And the middle-grounders and the ‘undecided’ types who
    decide elections ? Well they are off playing
    video games or wondering whats on tv this week.

    w
    v

    Sure.

    But when the undecideds lift up their eyes in September and October, and see the obstructionism of the Rs and the damaged R presidential nominee, they are going to vote for the Ds. Unfortunately, many of the districts have been gerrymandered so severely that it’s not possible for the Rs to get blown out, but holding up the Supreme Court is not going to play well with the independents and undecideds. They may not have passionate political beliefs, but I’m pretty confident that they don’t want the federal government to be jammed up and gridlocked. Ted Cruz and Grover Norquist want that, but most people don’t.

    #39014
    waterfield
    Participant

    Over the years the president’s nominee has normally focused on finding someone that both parties can accept. One strategy now would be for Obama to nominate a very liberal judge which then forces the Republicans to reconsider their stalemate on the chance that Clinton-or Sanders win and their stuck with the worst case scenario.

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