Recent Forum Topics › Forums › The Public House › Capitalism
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August 27, 2020 at 4:05 pm #120073wvParticipant
“hopelessness, poverty, and iphones”
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August 27, 2020 at 4:14 pm #120074wvParticipantI am not sure that there is a better five-minute video in history,
than that one.Thats about as good as a human can do with five minutes.
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vAugust 28, 2020 at 10:14 am #120109Billy_TParticipantThat is a good video, WV.
Syriza. I was thrilled when they won, and that Varoufakis was their finance guy — at least for short time. A (supposedly) truly leftist movement takes power in Greece, and then . . . Well, it’s complex, but they basically succumbed to the ferocity of austerity and Varoufakis couldn’t prevent this from within.
Speaking of excellent videos, this one by David Harvey goes well with yours:
The Crisis of Capitalism____
P.S. We all live in glass houses, of course, to one degree or another. So that’s baked into what follows:
IMO, some folks on the left spend far too much time attacking this or that person or party for failing to push for better social welfare programs. While vast improvements along those lines are obviously needed, and urgently, the root of our problems is the existence of capitalism, not the absence of a better safety net. Urging the addition of a better safety net, while laudable, while necessary in the short term, still falls woefully short. It will always fall woefully short. It won’t end poverty, hunger, homelessness. It won’t prevent catastrophic climate change. It won’t stop the Sixth Extinction. It will reshuffle the deck chairs on the Titanic to a degree, and provide a few more life boats. But the ship will still sink. And it doesn’t have to be.
Clinging to this horrific economic system, which is quite literally economic apartheid, is sheer madness. Expending all of our energy trying to offset its horror show of effects is sheer idiocy. The very acknowledgement that it requires those offsets tells us we should dump it altogether. Replace it seed, root, tree and branch with economic democracy, from the ground up. All of us co-owners, by writ and right, under a new constitution. No proxies. Direct ownership.
That’s the only way we survive as a species. That’s the only way most life forms survive the 22nd century.
August 29, 2020 at 9:42 pm #120169wvParticipantAugust 30, 2020 at 8:34 am #120181Billy_TParticipantAgree with that other video too.
Capitalism, on its own, in and of itself, is the problem. Adjectives like corporate or crony or neoliberal aren’t necessary to make that case clearly.
And long before those adjectives were even thought of, the capitalist system was busy accruing its capital via worldwide rape, pillage and plunder, which involved genocide and slavery. Which had to involve those things.
Any economic system that says it’s legal for one human to own all the production of countless other humans will lead to countless horrors. It can’t help but do that. And any economic system with the Prime Directive of “enrich yourself!” is guaranteed to forever block the necessities of life from the masses and destroy the natural world. It’s just math, physics and common sense. You can’t concentrate wealth and assets in a few hands and provide for the masses at the same time. You can’t set up the incentive of endless growth and consumption and not destroy Nature. It’s impossible, not to mention fundamentally immoral.
And, again, with the clinging: Capitalism is shit. It’s a shit sandwich. Even the “reformist” left thinks it makes sense to pour perfume on that shit, rather than just replacing the shit altogether with something else, something healthy and good, in and of itself. The political right, of course, is busy finding better and better ways of selling shit. It doesn’t care all that much about the perfumes. It tries to gaslight people into thinking eating shit is “manly,” and that adding perfumes isn’t.
Capitalism must die, or we all will.
August 30, 2020 at 11:39 am #120196wvParticipantHakim is a smart young man. I agree with him on this (and many things),
but i also agree with R.Wolff. I think co-ops can be flawed and they can be restricted by all the surrounding shit-storm of Capitalism — but so what. They are still better than nothing. Better than nothing is…better…than nothing.
Even if co ops dont ‘lead to socialism’ — so what.August 30, 2020 at 11:59 am #120198Billy_TParticipantHakim is a smart young man. I agree with him on this (and many things),
but i also agree with R.Wolff. I think co-ops can be flawed and they can be restricted by all the surrounding shit-storm of Capitalism — but so what. They are still better than nothing. Better than nothing is…better…than nothing.
Even if co ops dont ‘lead to socialism’ — so what.I agree with you on that. Love Wolff’s take on WSDEs and Co-Ops. I’m definitely not in the All or Nothing camp. Take every step we can to try to make things better, here and now — including reforms within the capitalist system.
My thing is that we shouldn’t stop with just the amelioration of capitalism’s worst effects. That shouldn’t be our end goal, IMO. Keep pushing and pushing until we can replace it entirely. In fact, I think the very process of strong reforms can make that eventual replacement much easier, and far less likely to require any force or coercion. And I’m in always gonna be in the non-violent, democratic change camp.
I know that’s gonna take a lot of time, and I won’t live to see it happen. But it’s worth the battle.
August 31, 2020 at 10:41 am #120213Billy_TParticipantTrying to uncloud the waters here a bit, if my posts seem contradictory:
There’s aspiration, and levels within that aspiration. There’s what’s doable now, and levels regarding the doable. Contingency and different contexts change everything. Different inputs, different outputs, etc. Study after study shows how humans, perhaps Americans especially, seem able to do 180s on previous beliefs, with the right messaging from a unified party, institution, organization, etc. etc. Republicans prior to Trump, for instance, were overwhelmingly in favor of “free trade,” against tariffs, etc. etc. Now? Not so much. Same with their view of Putin. Used to see him as the enemy. Now they see him as a friend, and so on.
So while I believe with all my heart that we absolutely must get rid of capitalism if we are to survive as a species, I also realize this can’t be done overnight, and that the way we make this change matters. If it could be done with the wave of a hand, and without violence, I’d say do it now, today, this instant. It’s actually centuries overdue. But that’s obviously not possible. To make it as non-violent and democratic as possible — which, btw, is also the way to make the change lasting — we’re going to have to do it in stages.
The key, of course, is to make those changes as big (and rapid) as possible along the way, and not the baby-step incrementalist approach that centrists love so much. Go big, bring a unified message, support it with confidence and strength, and we can change minds. I think with the right messaging Americans would be willing to accept those big changes, contrary to what Dems constantly say. If Trump can make the Republican faithful flip flop on a dozen issues, the Dems could have passed M4A back in 2010, if they had actually wanted to.
In short, there’s a huge difference between what I (passionately) believe the earth and all life forms so desperately need, and what our existing context/system/political environment allows. I also think that existing context is incredibly malleable, and a hell of a lot more moveable than most people think. And that gives me great hope on the one hand, but tremendous angst on the other. Cuz that malleability means things can go in the other direction too, as they have, especially in recent years.
1. Goal: Replace capitalism with economic democracy
2. That economic democracy must harmonize with the “natural” world
3. Strategy: Broaden the Commons, as quickly as possible, but not quick enough to “spook” the populace.
4. Show the people that a greater Commons means a better life. Make it possible for them to see that a still greater Commons means an even better life, and so on, progressively.
5. Keep pushing, in solidarity, confidently, for greater and greater freedom from all forms of domination, coercion, and that means toppling pyramids. That means no more ladders to climb.August 31, 2020 at 3:14 pm #120236ZooeyModeratorYeah, capitalism doesn’t work well. It is founded on a tremendous lie which is that “An unimpeded Free Market will always self-correct, and trend towards the betterment of everybody.” And that’s total crap.
The free market trends towards the amassing and consolidation of wealth and power at the expense of just about everything that stands in its way.
I saw this the other day, and I think it makes a great point.
September 1, 2020 at 10:44 am #120266Billy_TParticipantThat’s good, Zooey. And spot on.
Not everything we need, not all the work we need done, will ever be profitable for the few, and under the cancerous rule(s) of capitalism, that means all kinds of things are perennially left undone. Matters of life and death are left undone. Millions die, literally, because of this.
More than two billion people have no access to functional sanitation, for example. Why? Because it’s not profitable for the few to provide that to the many. More than two billion people also lack access to safe water. Again, it’s not profitable for the few to provide it, so it doesn’t happen. And food? More than a billion humans go hungry each year. This is happening while the rich nations of this earth routinely throw out nearly half of what we buy.
(Hope Jahren says, in her The Story of More, that we already produce more than enough food to feed everyone on earth. Everyone. But the capitalist system isn’t set up to provide for need. It’s set up to make money for the few.)
Which leads to this aspect of capitalism as well: It’s massively inefficient, when it comes to providing for our needs. On the way to the dinner table, 40% of produce is lost in some way, spoils, is dumped to increase prices. Growing a pound of beef takes seven pounds or more of grain, etc. A bottle of beer takes roughly six bottles of water, and so on. All of this waste, all of this pollution, in the service of making billionaires and paupers.
It’s obscene.
September 1, 2020 at 10:57 am #120267Billy_TParticipantWas also thinking recently about the twin guilt-reducers in rich countries:
Charity and support for social welfare programs.
Too many people are okay with a system that requires massive offsets, so billions don’t just keel over and die.
But why are they at risk in the first place? Why do they need charity and social welfare supports in the first place? Primarily because any system based on the scheme of the individual pursuit of wealth automatically creates, mass inequality, poverty, and hunger for the many. The concentration of wealth at the top will always mean the folks not at the top struggle to survive, and all too many at the bottom and the lower middle won’t make it.
It doesn’t have to be this way, and the answers are right under our noses. Change the rationale for the economy from the individual pursuit of wealth to the up-front, direct fulfillment of need, for everyone, with no one left behind.
Martin Hagglund talks about a much better set of rationales:
1. Provide for all necessities
2. Work to solve problems and crises, together
3. Work for the common good
4. Generate more and more truly “free time” for everyone. That’s what “innovation” would do if it weren’t folded into profit-making.This really isn’t rocket science. Put people first. Put the environment first. Take “profit” out of the equation entirely. It has no moral, ethical or humanitarian legitimacy to begin with. Dump the entire concept of individual wealth accumulation, which can never be done without harming countless others anyway.
We humans have been gaslit for far too long.
September 1, 2020 at 11:09 am #120268Billy_TParticipantJust in case:
I’m not trying to argue against charity and the social safety net under current conditions, by any means. They’re absolutely necessary, though I’d prefer a far greater emphasis on the latter — an expansion of the Commons and general support. I’m just saying that we wouldn’t need them if we replaced capitalism with economic democracy and sanity, localized, sustainable, cooperative, egalitarian production and distribution of necessities, etc.
Have always liked this quote from Achebe:
“While we do our good works let us not forget that the real solution lies in a world in which charity will have become unnecessary.”
― Chinua Achebe, Anthills of the Savannah -
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