Recent Forum Topics › Forums › The Public House › Anybody's wife, daughter, girlfriend, etc march today?
- This topic has 40 replies, 8 voices, and was last updated 7 years, 11 months ago by Billy_T.
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January 21, 2017 at 10:08 pm #64057waterfieldParticipant
Barbara did and said it was simply enormous in L.A.She’s signed up for “100 days of disruption”
January 21, 2017 at 10:22 pm #64058znModeratorMore friends than I can count. And their daughters too, in many cases. Many locally, many went to Washington.
Here’s 2–a couple I know, in Washington. They travelled there from here. Actually I know her (one with the bigger sign) better than her (one with the smaller sign). They posted this on Facebook.
January 21, 2017 at 11:56 pm #64062PA RamParticipantMy wife and I were at a local rally today. They had a couple of hundred people.
Some nice speeches.
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. " Philip K. Dick
January 22, 2017 at 4:21 am #64063nittany ramModeratorMy wife is in Washington DC.
January 22, 2017 at 7:13 am #64064wvParticipantI have some friends that went to Washington.
…i’m glad people wanna protest the Monster-Trump. But i am disheartened that the same folks didnt protest mass-murderers like Obama, Bush, Clinton, Reagan, etc.
Ah well.
w
vJanuary 22, 2017 at 7:36 am #64065TSRFParticipantMy daughter marched in Geneva, Switzerland. This was world wide
January 22, 2017 at 9:06 am #64069znModeratori am disheartened that the same folks didnt protest mass-murderers like Obama, Bush, Clinton, Reagan, etc
Some of the same people DID protest that stuff.
Now they have been joined by a large percentage of mainstreamers.
January 22, 2017 at 9:29 am #64072Billy_TParticipantI have some friends that went to Washington.
…i’m glad people wanna protest the Monster-Trump. But i am disheartened that the same folks didnt protest mass-murderers like Obama, Bush, Clinton, Reagan, etc.
Ah well.
w
vI have family and friends who went too. Some of those people also protested wars, regardless of administrations. As mentioned in another thread, I protested the Vietnam war in high school. But I knew I was against it at an earlier age, while LBJ was president. And I remember watching mass protests of him and Democratic Party policy regarding the war. I don’t remember people holding back because they didn’t want to, say, hurt the Dems.
I think things have become so incredibly partisan these days, many people left of center are conflicted about everything political. They think loud condemnation of the Dems just helps the further right and the GOP. I’d venture a guess that most of us here think that’s a mistake, and that we should make principled stances, regardless. People above parties and profits. But I do understand the dilemma. Most of them have made the calculation that support for the Dems, instead of the GOP, means less carnage, and while they hate that dilemma, they don’t see much of a choice.
We leftists shouldn’t think we’re entirely off the hook, either, even though we oppose BOTH parties. Perhaps if we had done more to push a true alternative, fewer people would be conflicted.
I think it’s safe to say those in power bear the bulk of the responsibility. But “the left” has been all too willing to sit on the sidelines for decades, and too much of “the left” has abandoned the issue of “class.” It’s not just the centrist/neoliberal Dems who have done this. Those of us well to their left haven’t exactly been the greatest champions for the poor, either, and our decision to (mostly) stay out of electoral politics has obviously failed.
It’s time we do more than condemn the duopoly, the Deep State, etc. etc. It’s time we actually create, expand, and “market” viable alternatives.
January 22, 2017 at 9:40 am #64073znModeratorBut “the left” has been all too willing to sit on the sidelines for decades, and too much of “the left” has abandoned the issue of “class.”
This is just more division.
I don’t know anyone who is genuinely left who “abandoned class.” I think that’s just a divisive slogan that showed up recently.
You can’t separate class and race and gender in the USA and end up with an analysis that is worth a damm. To me that includes trying to act like class has been abandoned. Well, no. It hasn’t. That’s just a thing divisive intercine warfare leftists say to other leftists to prove their “purity.”
Here’s my view. Fuck purity. Listen to everyone who has something to say and forget the litmus tests.
Frankly, if I had a conversation in the real world here where I live with leftists, none of this would ever come up. It’s only here that I get the “the left abandoned class” routines which, frankly, do not apply to any real activist I know personally.
Talking about the real left. Not party-oriented liberal types.
What screws over the left now is what has always screwed over the left. Intercine warfare caused by the “I’m more pure” motif.
January 22, 2017 at 9:42 am #64074Billy_TParticipantA list of favorite signs, from the WaPo:
#FreeMelania
No Country for Dirty Old Men
Sad!
Resistance is Fertile
Too Worried to be Funny
If Mom’s Not Happy, Nobody’s Happy
I Have a Vagenda
Manchurine Candidate
Orange Is the New Fascism
There Is So Much Wrong It Cannot Fit on This Sign
Super Callous Fragile Ego, Trump You Are Atrocious
Super Callous Fascist Racist Extra Braggadocious
Actuaries Against Repeal and Delay
Leave it to the Beavers
Viva la Vulva
(Older woman’s sign:) I Can’t Believe I’m Still Protesting This S—
J Edgar Comey
(On image of President Trump as a scarecrow:) If He Only Had a Brain
(On a drawing of ovaries:) Grow a Pair
This P—- Grabs Back
Donald You Ignorant Slut
Melania, Blink Twice if You Need Help
Impeach Trump, Convert Pence
#emoluments
Sorry World, We’ll Fix This
(On needlepoint:) I Made This So I Could Stab Something 35,000 Times
Patriarchy is for D—-
There Will Be Hell ToupéeUpdate, 5:30 p.m.: A few more from your responses on social media:
We Want a Leader, Not a Creepy Tweeter.
HARDLY ANYONE MARCHED. FAILURE. SAD.
(Beneath a “Don’t Tread on Me” flag:) Don’t Pee on Me
1968 is Calling. Don’t Answer
Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Czar/ Putin Made You What You Are
Fact Checkers of the World, Unite!
I know signs. I make the best signs. They’re great. Everyone agrees.
I (heart) Journalists.
Vaginas Brought You Into the World. Vaginas Will Vote You Out.
I Wish My Uterus Shot Bullets So the Government Wouldn’t Regulate It
(On photo of Meryl Streep): What She Said.
I’m Quite Unhappy.
We Shall Overcomb.January 22, 2017 at 9:46 am #64075Billy_TParticipantBut “the left” has been all too willing to sit on the sidelines for decades, and too much of “the left” has abandoned the issue of “class.”
This is just more division.
I don’t know anyone who is genuinely left who “abandoned class.” I think that’s just a divisive slogan that showed up recently.
You can’t separate class and race and gender in the USA and end up with an analysis that is worth a damm. To me that includes trying to act like class has been abandoned. Well, no. It hasn’t. That’s just a thing divisive intercine warfare leftists say to other leftists to prove their “purity.”
Here’s my view. Fuck purity. Listen to everyone who has something to say and forget the litmus tests.
Frankly, if I had a conversation in the real world here where I live with leftists, none of this would ever come up. It’s only here that I get the “the left abandoned class” routines which, frankly, does not apply to any real activist I know personally.
Well, we disagree about that. Especially about the “purity” part. And, ironically, you injected that into the thread by saying you never bump into any leftists who believe “class” has been abandoned . . . which, of course, implies, if not outright states, those of us who feel differently can’t be “real leftists.”
Um, ZN, that’s a litmus test, as is your declaration that you can’t separate race from class, gender, etc. etc.
In reality, that’s just your own interpretation of the discussion. I don’t share it. But I do identify as a “leftist.”
Regardless . . . we’re just engaging in the very thing you said we shouldn’t. Which I don’t want to do, either.
January 22, 2017 at 9:50 am #64076Billy_TParticipantBoiled down? I think we need to be honest about ourselves, too. We all need to do some major soul-searching to see how on earth things came to this.
It drives me up the wall to hear Dems refuse to accept ANY responsibility for Clinton’s defeat, as they lash out at “the left,” all too often viciously.
Are we better if we don’t look deep within and question our own methods, strategies, efforts, interpretations?
Doesn’t the traditional leftist call to “question your assumptions” apply to us as well?
- This reply was modified 7 years, 11 months ago by Billy_T.
January 22, 2017 at 10:06 am #64078znModeratorif not outright states, those of us who feel differently can’t be “real leftists.”
Saying someone has an incomplete analysis does not question their “purity” it questions their analysis. (BTW another response to the idea that the left has not abandoned class is that to say “good glad to hear it.”) From what I see, the “abandoned class” complaint is often fueled these days by people who want to claim, to me completely groundlessly, that Trump appealed to something real and that was based in class. People who do that, in my view, just have an incomplete analysis—issues of race (and in different ways gender) drove Trumpism as much as anything else, and I just don’t see us getting anywhere by ignoring that.
You’re not a target. We’re supposed to be speaking together about what would lead to more effective analysis. That’s dialogue. The way that dialogue could be knocked off the tracks would be to make it personal, act like one’s own view is beyond constructive dialogue, or any of the other countless things that muddy these kinds of discussions.
January 22, 2017 at 10:20 am #64079nittany ramModeratorIt was a global event…
January 22, 2017 at 10:32 am #64080znModeratorIt was a global event…
Not sure what a map revealing where one-eyed extraterrestrial invaders have taken over has to do with what we were discussing.
January 22, 2017 at 10:37 am #64081Billy_TParticipantif not outright states, those of us who feel differently can’t be “real leftists.”
Saying someone has an incomplete analysis does not question their “purity” it questions their analysis. (BTW another response to the idea that the left has not abandoned class is that to say “good glad to hear it.”) From what I see, the “abandoned class” complaint is often fueled these days by people who want to claim, to me completely groundlessly, that Trump appealed to something real and that was based in class. People who do that, in my view, just have an incomplete analysis—issues of race (and in different ways gender) drove Trumpism as much as anything else, and I just don’t see us getting anywhere by ignoring that.
You’re not a target. We’re supposed to be speaking together about what would lead to more effective analysis. That’s dialogue. The way that dialogue could be knocked off the tracks would be to make it personal, act like one’s own view is beyond constructive dialogue, or any of the other countless things that muddy these kinds of discussions.
ZN, well, I’m seeing some mixed messages in your response to my post. Maybe you can clarify after this one.
For instance, when you say:
BTW another response to the idea that the left has not abandoned class is that to say “good glad to hear it.”
I get the impression you’re saying to me, as if I’m a concerned outsider, not to fret. Real leftists “got this.” As if, I’m, say, a concerned Vikings fan, worried about recent stories that Rams fans are doing bad stuff in tailgate parties. Um, no. I’m a Rams fan too. It’s my team too. I’m in the middle of those observations about my own team. I’m not a concerned outsider, in need of reassurance, etc.
Also: it’s a major stretch to try to link my concerns to the analysis about Trump. I, too, see that as wildly incomplete and have said so here. I posted a great article from Jacobin that shows the real “forgotten voters” were left of center folks who could never vote for Trump, but wanted a true progressive and progressive vision at the helm. It was pretty much ignored, as they have been.
January 22, 2017 at 10:44 am #64082Billy_TParticipantNittany,
It was pretty much amazing. I may have forgotten in my old age, but I’ve never seen anything like this in terms of size, scope or passion.
The first president I can remember actually connecting to was Kennedy, and the first election I was caught up in was in 1968. From that time until now, I just don’t recall any mass demonstrations on Day Two coming close to this.
It gives me a lot of hope.
January 22, 2017 at 10:45 am #64083znModeratorI get the impression you’re saying to me, as if I’m a concerned outsider, not to fret. Real leftists “got this.”
I don’t know what to do with that kind of thing, bt. No, I assure you, that’s not what I am saying. If I meant that, I am not shy, I would have said that. I am just not a very dance around it, euphemistic kinda guy and if anything as a rule I famously err on the side of aggression, not passive aggression. So if I meant that I would have said it.
I am not sending “mixed messages.” My MESSAGE is very direct. I think it is simply not true that the left as some generalizable entity has abandoned class. So the people who say that strike me as being analytically wrong. As a rule I am never convinced that any analysis separating class, race, and gender is of much use or very accurate. I used Trump as an example. I think the best analysis, the kind that will explain the most and hit the target most often, pays attention to what race means in and to the pro-Trump demographic. Not just class. I think ignoring that leads to a far less effective analysis.
January 22, 2017 at 10:57 am #64084Billy_TParticipantI think it’s safe to say those in power bear the bulk of the responsibility. But “the left” has been all too willing to sit on the sidelines for decades, and too much of “the left” has abandoned the issue of “class.” It’s not just the centrist/neoliberal Dems who have done this. Those of us well to their left haven’t exactly been the greatest champions for the poor, either, and our decision to (mostly) stay out of electoral politics has obviously failed.
Okay. But I think you missed the qualifier here.
I think it’s safe to say those in power bear the bulk of the responsibility. But “the left” has been all too willing to sit on the sidelines for decades, and too much of “the left” has abandoned the issue of “class.” It’s not just the centrist/neoliberal Dems who have done this. Those of us well to their left haven’t exactly been the greatest champions for the poor, either, and our decision to (mostly) stay out of electoral politics has obviously failed.
Admittedly, I wasn’t consistent in my attempt to say not the entire left was guilty of this, and it’s perhaps lazy to even say “too much of the left.” But if I were to break it down, person by person, or group by group, I’d probably overload the servers and Western Civilization would collapse as we know it. In the immortal words of Otter, from Animal House.
Now, we could fight ’em with conventional weapons. That could take years and cost millions of lives
January 22, 2017 at 10:59 am #64085Billy_TParticipantBoiled down, I took a shortcut, generalized too much, and didn’t use enough qualifiers.
As my great aunt used to say, Mea Culpa. Mea maxima culpa.
- This reply was modified 7 years, 11 months ago by Billy_T.
January 22, 2017 at 11:34 am #64088znModeratorBoiled down, I took a shortcut, generalized too much, and didn’t use enough qualifiers.
You ALWAYS DO THAT, every time.
Kidding.
See in my first line I displayed the very sin you confess to! (!)
Anyway.
My own personal take on all of this is that it is next to impossible to separate class, race, and gender, particularly in an analysis of the present political issues.
January 22, 2017 at 12:06 pm #64092waterfieldParticipantI’m not smart enough to understand the argument over “class” that you two are waging. But I know the people that went with my wife cover the entire political spectrum. The common denominators were they are women and they are smart.
January 22, 2017 at 12:30 pm #64100znModeratorI’m not smart enough to understand the argument over “class” that you two are waging. But I know the people that went with my wife cover the entire political spectrum. The common denominators were they are women and they are smart.
Hard to respond to that.
First, you characterize a difference in analytic emphasis as “war.” That’s just hyperbole W. And if you want to understand what we’re debating, just ask.
Second, you then add the idea that people who went to the rallies were from all over the political spectrum. Not clear how that connects to the issue of “class.” It’s as if you said “I don’t want to get into your debate about condiments, ketchup and mustard. BESIDES, some cars these days are electric.” That is you put 2 completely unrelated ideas together in a way that is just flat confusing.
Third, we weren’t discussing the marches anyway so who went is not relevant. So that’s a third non-sequitur. Now, in addition to the electric cars, you add “and besides the Rams aren’t what they used to be.”
It looks to me like you didn’t follow the discussion at all but needed somehow to refute it in some way.
So it’s as if we said, yes McVay will be implementing a classic WCO offense. And you said, oh yeah well the civil war was fought in the 19th century not the 18th.
January 22, 2017 at 12:31 pm #64101wvParticipantJanuary 22, 2017 at 12:34 pm #64103wvParticipant<b
This is just more division.I don’t know anyone who is genuinely left who “abandoned class.” I think that’s just a divisive slogan that showed up recently.
——————
See, i think ‘what screws over the left’ is that there ISNT one.There’s Dems and Reps.
Jill got one percent of the vote. One percent.
Where’s ‘the left’ ?
w
vJanuary 22, 2017 at 12:35 pm #64104znModeratorTrue SOME did.
Most didnt though. As you know.
w
vThis discussion is so confused because people are generalizing about completely different things.
I was referring to the actual left consisting of actual leftists.
And yes of course as a group or as a tendency…what do you call the left?…yes they critiqued and protested those things, all along. So what I know as in “as you know” is THAT.
The left was never absent from those issues. The mainstream was.
January 22, 2017 at 12:39 pm #64106Billy_TParticipantOh, man. Just noticed my post with the Animal House video is really messed up as far as quotes and formatting.
I don’t know how I did it . . . but, the first quote is my own. I was arguing with myself!!
Isn’t it enough that you were arguing with ZN, Billy_T?
No. I disagree, Billy_T. You’re wrong!!!
No, you’re wrong, Billy_T!!!January 22, 2017 at 12:44 pm #64107znModeratorSee, i think ‘what screws over the left’ is that there ISNT one.
There’s Dems and Reps.
Jill got one percent of the vote. One percent.
Where’s ‘the left’ ?
w
vI’m a lifelong leftist. And I didn’t vote for Stein. It’s a mistake to characterize the left by who they did or did not vote for in THIS election.
There is a left in this country, as you know. And for a ton of reasons it does not reduce to who voted for Stein. That just feels like more of the left purism I am complaining about. It goes like this–to ME the left equals these stances, and these actions, and to me that means voting for Stein, and if you didn’t you aren’t.
See my Monty Python vid a few posts back.
Making it personal, you’re really saying if I didn’t vote for Stein in your eyes I can’t call myself a leftist?
Yet…I am a leftist.
January 22, 2017 at 1:26 pm #64114Billy_TParticipantI voted for Stein, too. But it’s worth noting that my own political philosophy is to her left as well. She doesn’t represent my views on capitalism, for instance, or on matters of equality.
There is a great deal of diversity on “the left,” and even among “leftists.” Not all leftists, for instance, are anticapitalists, though I think most are. And not all leftists favor the destruction of hierarchies, though I think pretty much all of them want them to be far less stark.
My own view of the left to right continuum, compressed and simplified to save time:
The total rejection of inequality versus the total acceptance of it. I think where one sits along the political spectrum is, in one way or another, dependent upon that. I think pretty much all the other stances on the issues start there, consciously or not.
Personally, I’m not comfortable with even, say, millionaires in society. That’s far too much inequality and hierarchy for me. I can see slight differences in income and net wealth, based on time on the job, willingness to seek additional skill sets and knowledge, or taking on extra tasks, voluntarily. But I don’t think the differences should ever rise above small percentages. I don’t think we should even have something as large as a 2 to 1 ratio, much less our current 300 to 1 ratio on average.
And I reject the idea that we should continue with any economic forms that involve private ownership of the means of production, or any employer/employee relationships. To me, we all should be co-owners. All means of production directly in our hands. No proxies. No “representatives” for this. Direct, legal, Constitutional ownership of the means of production for all of us, with equal say, voice, choice, rights, etc.
That’s not Stein or the Green Party. Though she’s closer to me by a ton than the Dems, and the Dems are closer to me than the GOP, etc. etc.
January 22, 2017 at 2:08 pm #64119znModeratorThere is a great deal of diversity on “the left” and among “leftists.”
In other words, the left always has and of necessity always will be oriented around alliance politics and confederations of views. It can’t function otherwise, not if it aims to do anything. The only question becomes how far to the right are you willing to go in terms of adding alliances. Does it extend to and include party-devoted dem types? To me that depends on the issues.
So maybe the better thing to do is what bt just did…say, well, this in reality is the alliance and it includes these views and those views, though speaking for myself I am from this particular faction of that alliance, which is nobody’s fault, not even the Romans.
That to me is the productive opposite of standard issue leftist in-fighting.
More Monty Python.
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