Recent Forum Topics › Forums › The Public House › any Game of Thrones guys here?
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July 5, 2016 at 8:22 am #47887znModerator
is more ‘political’ than anything else. I wish George Martin (or substitute any fantasy writer, film-maker) would have added a faction, or tribe, or kingdom, or family that stood for democratic-socialism.
He did. It just wasn’t seen in the final episodes of Season 6. It’s the so-called Brotherhood Without Banners. Or there’s an element of that in them.
The Brotherhood Without Banners is an outlaw group working against Lannister interests in the Riverlands at the time of the War of the Five Kings, though their goal is to protect the smallfolk from any force preying on them, regardless of which King or Lord they support.
July 5, 2016 at 8:46 am #47889nittany ramModeratorMy only complaint (which i made to a fantasy-loving-friend of mine, and I also made the complaint about Star Wars…)
is more ‘political’ than anything else. I wish George Martin (or substitute any fantasy writer, film-maker) would have added a faction, or tribe, or kingdom, or family that stood for democratic-socialism.Well, the thing about these fantasy worlds is progress is never made no matter how many eons pass. It’s certainly true of Tolkien’s world and of George R Martin’s. Developmentally from a technological, political and cultural standpoint, the worlds are stagnant – stuck in a continuous midieval rut. So newer, more enlightened forms of government never develop. If you moved through time on one of these worlds everything would be the same no matter how far back or how far forward in time you traveled. So don’t expect anyone to come along with any new fangled ideas about democracy or the redistribution of wealth and power.
July 5, 2016 at 9:28 am #47896Billy_TParticipantWell, the thing about these fantasy worlds is progress is never made no matter how many eons pass. It’s certainly true of Tolkien’s world and of George R Martin’s. Developmentally from a technological, political and cultural standpoint, the worlds are stagnant – stuck in a continuous midieval rut. So newer, more enlightened forms of government never develop. If you moved through time on one of these worlds everything would be the same no matter how far back or how far forward in time you traveled. So don’t expect anyone to come along with any new fangled ideas about democracy or the redistribution of wealth and power.
In my latest novel — which is almost ready to go — I have characters discussing this, but with regard to our Super Hero stories. Comic Books have these amazingly powerful “heroes,” but they never really change ultimate realities. They don’t go after “systems” of oppression, for instance. They don’t solve problems like inequality, hunger, the concentrations of extreme wealth, power, privilege and access. They don’t seem to worry about the absence of democracy. Instead, they defeat certain villains, even all-powerful villains from other worlds . . . . but our status quo ante lives on.
Perhaps this is because so many comic book authors are propertarians, ideologically. That’s just a guess of mine. I have zero proof. But you’ll notice how often the “good guys” are lone billionaires, and it’s either explicit or implicit that no one but the super-rich has the means to fight “evil.” But, again, what does the world look like after they’ve done this?
How many comic book heroes actually fight for greater equality, democracy, the environment, etc. etc.? How many fight to topple wealth, privilege, hierarchies and so on?
- This reply was modified 8 years, 5 months ago by Billy_T.
July 5, 2016 at 9:50 am #47900nittany ramModeratorHow many comic book heroes actually fight for greater equality, democracy, the environment, etc. etc.? How many fight to topple wealth, privilege, hierarchies and so
I don’t know a lot about comic book heros but it seems to me they are actually fighting to preserve the current system. In the simplistic black and white comic book world, the problem isn’t the system. The system is fair and just. Superman fights for ‘truth, justice and the American way’. I think in the comic book world everything would be perfect if not for the criminal element. All the blame for anything that’s wrong falls on them. That may be over simplistic, I haven’t read a comic book since I was a kid but that’s my perception of it.
July 5, 2016 at 9:55 am #47901Billy_TParticipantI don’t know a lot about comic book heros but it seems to me they are actually fighting to preserve the current system. In the simplistic black and white comic book world, the problem isn’t the system. The system is fair and just. Superman fights for ‘truth, justice and the American way’. I think in the comic book world everything would be perfect if not for the criminal element. All the blame for anything that’s wrong falls on them. That may be over simplistic, I haven’t read a comic book since I was a kid but that’s my perception of it.
That makes sense. My reference, and the discussion by my characters, is to the movie world of comic books. Marvel and DC, specifically. Movies are a powerful enough medium to affect the entire culture, and I think they don’t send great messages — with exceptions. I watch some of them and think about how that all works. But I don’t think it’s so great on balance.
July 6, 2016 at 4:02 am #47993July 6, 2016 at 7:28 am #48026wvParticipant.. If you moved through time on one of these worlds everything would be the same no matter how far back or how far forward in time you traveled. So don’t expect anyone to come along with any new fangled ideas about democracy or the redistribution of wealth and power.
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Well, my complaint stands. Capitalist-Fantasy-writers write stories
about feudalism-worship and monarchy-worship. And they dont have to.
They just do.w
vJuly 6, 2016 at 7:39 am #48031znModerator.. If you moved through time on one of these worlds everything would be the same no matter how far back or how far forward in time you traveled. So don’t expect anyone to come along with any new fangled ideas about democracy or the redistribution of wealth and power.
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Well, my complaint stands. Capitalist-Fantasy-writers write stories
about feudalism-worship and monarchy-worship. And they dont have to.
They just do.w
vAnd my response stands.
There IS an element of socialist/communitarian thought in the story. One key representative of that is the group called the Brotherhood Without Banners.
In this scene, the orphaned smith Gendry decides to stay with the brotherhood. Or at this point that’s what he wants. He is speaking to a young daughter of a noble house travelling incognito and in great danger (which is why she is not acting “ladylike” here—she is in disguise as a commoner). See what Gendry says.
July 6, 2016 at 6:35 pm #48094MackeyserModeratorHuge fan. Long time watcher, first time GoT poster…
Sports is the crucible of human virtue. The distillate remains are human vice.
July 6, 2016 at 6:51 pm #48096znModeratorThe system is fair and just. Superman fights for ‘truth, justice and the American way’.
You know what though? Read up on the history of Superman. Originally he was a New Deal Superman who fought villains like greedy landlords. So what counts as “the american way” can change across the years.
… the 1930s…saw Superman tackle corrupt politicians and slum landlords in the guise of an avenging New Deal protector for the downtrodden masses. During the Second World War and the Cold War he metamorphosed into the alien wing of the US armed services, striding the globe as an arbiter of ultimate moral authority and self-belief who simply could not be challenged.
July 7, 2016 at 9:17 am #48146Billy_TParticipantRestarting the series. Have watched the pilot and the second episode so far. It holds up really well on second viewing. Weird, but the killing of the direwolf “Lady” has impacted me more than several of the human deaths.
Beautiful animals. Not sure the breed, though I’m guessing WV would know. If I had a nice big yard with a fence, I’d definitely want to have one or more. The closest breed to an actual wolf would be preferable. Perhaps huskies or malamutes. Though I love golden retrievers too, as well as German shepherds.
July 7, 2016 at 10:02 am #48149nittany ramModeratorRestarting the series. Have watched the pilot and the second episode so far. It holds up really well on second viewing. Weird, but the killing of the direwolf “Lady” has impacted me more than several of the human deaths.
Beautiful animals. Not sure the breed, though I’m guessing WV would know. If I had a nice big yard with a fence, I’d definitely want to have one or more. The closest breed to an actual wolf would be preferable. Perhaps huskies or malamutes. Though I love golden retrievers too, as well as German shepherds.
As you know, all dogs are descended from wolves but the breed closest to the wolf genetically is the shi-tzu, followed by chows and other northern Asian breeds. So the dogs that look like wolves aren’t necessarily the closest related to them. I like all dogs but my wife and I prefer German Shepherds for many reasons with their wolf-like appearance being one of them.
BTW, the dire wolves in GOT did actually exist in the Pleistocene. They weren’t nearly as large as they are depicted to be on the show (they are about the same size as the modern grey wolf) but they had larger teeth and a stronger bite force.
You’re not alone in rooting for animals to live over humans. I’ll root for the animal every single time.
- This reply was modified 8 years, 5 months ago by nittany ram.
- This reply was modified 8 years, 5 months ago by nittany ram.
July 7, 2016 at 10:20 am #48153Billy_TParticipantRestarting the series. Have watched the pilot and the second episode so far. It holds up really well on second viewing. Weird, but the killing of the direwolf “Lady” has impacted me more than several of the human deaths.
Beautiful animals. Not sure the breed, though I’m guessing WV would know. If I had a nice big yard with a fence, I’d definitely want to have one or more. The closest breed to an actual wolf would be preferable. Perhaps huskies or malamutes. Though I love golden retrievers too, as well as German shepherds.
As you know, all dogs are descended from wolves but the breed closest to the wolf genetically is the shi-tzu, followed by chows and other northern Asian breeds. So the dogs that look like wolves aren’t necessarily the closest related to them. I like all dogs but my wife and I prefer German Shepherds for many reasons with their wolf-like appearance being one of them.
BTW, the dire wolves in GOT did actually exist in the Pleistocene. They weren’t nearly as large as they are depicted to be on the show (they are about the same size as the modern grey wolf) but they had larger teeth and a stronger bite force.
You’re not alone in rooting for animals to live over humans. I’ll root for the animal every single time.
Thanks, Nittany. Will have to investigate those other breeds. But that confuses the issue for me a bit. I want the dog to look a lot like a wolf, cuz I think they’re beautiful animals. But another reason for wanting a wolf-like breed is because I read that wolves are really smart, smarter than dogs. May be wrong on that, but it’s just something I’ve read.
So to make a long story short, I want the smartest possible dog, and the one that looks the closest to “wolf-like.”
July 7, 2016 at 10:22 am #48154znModeratorRestarting the series. Have watched the pilot and the second episode so far. It holds up really well on second viewing.
I have a small complaint.
I am tired of the hissing, sinister, foul lowborn villain type. The doomed to die horribly type.
Karl in the mutiny at Craster’s Keep. Locke, the Bolton man. The Thenn leader. They’re all the same character.
Sandor really isn’t that, he has a redemption arc.
Btw there are some scenes that make no sense. I will speak in in-group language here so there’s no spoilers for the Unsullied by GOT types. The vengeful girl who gets the comeuppance on the “well deserved it” lord? How did she manage to kill 2 sons, carve them up, and bake them into a pie with no one noticing? Lot of work for one kid don’t you think?
Now complaints behind me…notice that Melisandre and Thoros profess the same religion but they interpret it and practice it in entirely different ways. She professes to see visions, and practices sacrifice. He is more like a down to earth monk, a Friar Tuck. What it suggests is that Melisandre is actually mixing in her own delusions with her visions though she is also right at times too (eg. she knows the real war is with the Walkers). So better to say, she can’t tell the difference, and he has no difference to have to tell.
July 7, 2016 at 10:34 am #48155Billy_TParticipantI’ll keep those in mind as I get to them, ZN.
But you’re correct about Arya’s improbable feat. Which reminds me of the second episode, and the way she handled Joffrey down by the stream. I like that (much younger and feistier) Arya a lot more than the person she grew up to become, the obsessed assassin . . . . and dislike that earlier Sansa a great deal, while liking her as an adult. Tragedy, hardships, atrocity, captivity having different effects on different characters, etc.
Also made me wonder if Arya will, at some point, save Jon, as a long-delayed thanks for “needle.” They once were very close “siblings.”
July 7, 2016 at 10:40 am #48156znModeratorWell, the thing about these fantasy worlds is progress is never made no matter how many eons pass. It’s certainly true of Tolkien’s world and of George R Martin’s. Developmentally from a technological, political and cultural standpoint, the worlds are stagnant – stuck in a continuous midieval rut. So newer, more enlightened forms of government never develop. If you moved through time on one of these worlds everything would be the same no matter how far back or how far forward in time you traveled. So don’t expect anyone to come along with any new fangled ideas about democracy or the redistribution of wealth and power.
I’ve mentioned this a couple of times now, but that’s not entirely true of GOT. There are scattered voices throughout who advocate a different vision than simple feudalism. I’ve mentioned Gedry defending the Brotherhood but there’s more, it’s not just him. So it is not true that GOT lacks a strand of democracy and social democracy. In fact in GOT class and gender inequities are constant themes and issues. They are not stable things the way they are in Tolkien.
To the point, in fact, where sympathetic lowborn characters have certain repeating tropes that identify their lowborn virtue–such as bluntly and honestly acknowledging the truth of a putdown instead of directly resenting it.
Example:
Sandor Clegane: Or is the little girl the bravest one here?
Beric: Aye, she might be… but it’s me you’ll fight.July 7, 2016 at 10:53 am #48158znModeratorIn fact in GOT class and gender inequities are constant themes and issues. They are not stable things the way they are in Tolkien.
I should say that they are not ideologically stable things the way they are in Tolkien.
That is, GOT is not a story about progress toward democracy and social democracy.
But the ideological stability of feudal beliefs and belief in its social structures is often very shakey. That is there are characters and types who do not buy in. GOT being GOT, that’s not even “one thing.” It can lead to appalling brutality on the part of lowborns who simply resent highborns. (For those who know the show, see Karl the Mutineer and Locke.) It can lead to ideological rejection of the system too (again see Gendry saying “I am done serving.” Though of course that’s complicated because Gendry the bastard doesn’t even know he has a highborn father.) In Tolkien, class and gender are never questioned–they are simply stable. Not in GOT. They are much more complicated and variable things.
July 7, 2016 at 12:46 pm #48171nittany ramModeratorIn fact in GOT class and gender inequities are constant themes and issues. They are not stable things the way they are in Tolkien.
I should say that they are not ideologically stable things the way they are in Tolkien.
That is, GOT is not a story about progress toward democracy and social democracy.
But the ideological stability of feudal beliefs and belief in its social structures is often very shakey. That is there are characters and types who do not buy in. GOT being GOT, that’s not even “one thing.” It can lead to appalling brutality on the part of lowborns who simply resent highborns. (For those who know the show, see Karl the Mutineer and Locke.) It can lead to ideological rejection of the system too (again see Gendry saying “I am done serving.” Though of course that’s complicated because Gendry the bastard doesn’t even know he has a highborn father.) In Tolkien, class and gender are never questioned–they are simply stable. Not in GOT. They are much more complicated and variable things.
Well, you have a much more detailed knowledge of the show than I do and I won’t argue with the idea that certain individuals question social structures and their place in them. But there is no large group or movement that is trying to create change towards a more benevolent system (Kaleesee’s rule would be more benevolent but it wouldn’t represent a move towards democracy). There is nothing currently happening that would suggest that if you visited Westeros 100 years from now anything would be significantly different.
- This reply was modified 8 years, 5 months ago by nittany ram.
July 7, 2016 at 1:04 pm #48177znModeratorBut there is no large group or movement that is trying to create change towards a more benevolent system
That’s true and it too is triple-edged.
First, this is basically supposed to be the era of the War of Roses, or around the 15th century. How much of what you describe in terms of social/political visions of an alternative system was there in the actual 15th century? It was basically nothing. There’s more of that in Martin/the show than in the real 15th century.
Second, but then, why the interest in and attraction to the 15th century on the part of Martin, the show, and readers/viewers?
Third, to counter THAT, why do we demand that stories like that fit OUR visions? Which puts us in a weird place. On the one hand, IMO it’s negligent to not critique that kind of ideological investment in feudal worlds. On the other hand, it would be neo-stalinist of us to simply reject stories like that because they don’t have the “right” politics. Quite a balancing act, to serve both those things. In fact it’s kind of like being a socially aware football fan.
July 9, 2016 at 4:41 pm #48332MackeyserModeratorThe smartest dog is likely the Jack Russell Terrier. So if you’re looking for the smartest…you could always get one and name him Wolfie or some clever association with wolf (native name, actor who played a wolf… Kevin…)
I’m just lurking on the GoT convo. It’s good reads…
Sports is the crucible of human virtue. The distillate remains are human vice.
July 9, 2016 at 6:32 pm #48333znModeratorI’m just lurking on the GoT convo. It’s good reads…
Well I invite you to let yourself go and have at it.
GOT us. Watcha got.
Anything will do, even a random observation. We’ll worry about “definitive analytic overviews” later…….
July 9, 2016 at 7:42 pm #48337ZooeyModeratorMy son really liked the books. Nobody in my family has seen the show, probably because we don’t have HBO, though my son is expert at piracy.
I’d like to read them, but there seems to be about 1,000 hours required to do that, and I do not have that kind of time.
July 9, 2016 at 8:32 pm #48339znModeratorMy son really liked the books. Nobody in my family has seen the show, probably because we don’t have HBO, though my son is expert at piracy.
I’d like to read them, but there seems to be about 1,000 hours required to do that, and I do not have that kind of time.
Do you do netflix?
July 9, 2016 at 8:42 pm #48340wvParticipantFirst, this is basically supposed to be the era of the War of Roses, or around the 15th century.
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Nah, thats not how i see it. Its got nuthin to do with the 15th century cause
its a fantasy-world. Its rules aint got nuthin to do with Earth history.w
vJuly 9, 2016 at 8:44 pm #48341wvParticipantMy son really liked the books. Nobody in my family has seen the show, probably because we don’t have HBO, though my son is expert at piracy.
I’d like to read them, but there seems to be about 1,000 hours required to do that, and I do not have that kind of time.
Do you do netflix?
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The first five seasons are on DVD. You can get them at any
local library, I’d think. Fwiw.w
vJuly 9, 2016 at 8:48 pm #48342znModeratorMy son really liked the books. Nobody in my family has seen the show, probably because we don’t have HBO, though my son is expert at piracy.
I’d like to read them, but there seems to be about 1,000 hours required to do that, and I do not have that kind of time.
Do you do netflix?
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The first five seasons are on DVD. You can get them at any
local library, I’d think. Fwiw.w
vYeah that’s how we watch em. Netflix, DVD.
.
July 12, 2016 at 8:45 pm #48592Billy_TParticipantI’ve now completed the first two seasons, and am well into Season Three. The ability to watch back to back episodes is addictive — and really bad for my time management.
Just finished an episode with one of the best dialogues between Littlefinger and Varys. Video of scene follows. Trigger warning, just in case: One of the images especially is very graphic and unsettling:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRS8a8HjqFs
Lord Varys: I did what I did for the good of the realm.
Petyr ‘Littlefinger’ Baelish: The realm. Do you know what the realm is? It’s the thousand blades of Aegon’s enemies, a story we agree to tell each other over and over, until we forget that it’s a lie.
Lord Varys: But what do we have left, once we abandon the lie? Chaos? A gaping pit waiting to swallow us all.
Petyr ‘Littlefinger’ Baelish: Chaos isn’t a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some, are given a chance to climb. They refuse, they cling to the realm or the gods or love. Illusions. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is.
- This reply was modified 8 years, 5 months ago by Billy_T.
July 13, 2016 at 12:21 am #48605znModeratorI’ve now completed the first two seasons, and am well into Season Three. The ability to watch back to back episodes is addictive — and really bad for my time management.
Just finished an episode with one of the best dialogues between Littlefinger and Varys. Video of scene follows. Trigger warning, just in case: One of the images especially is very graphic and unsettling:
For those who don’t know, Varys (no hair) and Littlefinger aka Baelish (mustache) are members of the council advising the king, who is a young monster. Both Varys and Baelish employ spies and informants. What Baelish reveals here is that the young monster king wanted to use his new crossbow on a whore…that’s the “daring” thing being referred to…and the whore Baelish supplies is a spy in the service of Varys. That’s a deliberate move on Baelish’s part. Basically, Baelish is taunting Varys with this revelation, saying, see this time I outmaneuvered you.
July 13, 2016 at 3:57 am #48609znModeratorJuly 13, 2016 at 7:23 am #48611 -
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