Anthropomorphism and communism

Recent Forum Topics Forums The Public House Anthropomorphism and communism

Viewing 9 posts - 1 through 9 (of 9 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #47208
    waterfield
    Participant

    The turtle discussion below reminded me that any discussion of Anthropomorphism with dog lovers can become heated. As most of you know I am a dog person having raised hunting spaniels over my lifetime. However, some time ago I was having what started out as a pleasant discussion with some of my wife’s side of the family who now live in Arizona (wouldn’t you just know it). After hearing one two many “My dog is really “smart” because he “thinks” that (blah blah blah) I said something to the effect that dogs don’t “think” as in the same vein as humans (i.e. they don’t have a language using words and try thinking about a subject w/o using words). And that we often-me included-attribute human characteristics to animals (i.e. he’s cute, she’s depressed, he’s lonely, etc) Well that started it and it became heated. Finally, one truck driving, tatooted, gun toting NRA and Trump supporter, stood up and said “what are you-some kind of communist”.

    Later Barb said to me “you know these people down there think your some kind of intellectual and that pisses them off”. Of course she then had to say-which many here will agree-“you are about as much of an intellectual as that dog of yours”.

    #47209
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    The turtle discussion below reminded me that any discussion of Anthropomorphism with dog lovers can become heated. As most of you know I am a dog person having raised hunting spaniels over my lifetime. However, some time ago I was having what started out as a pleasant discussion with some of my wife’s side of the family who now live in Arizona (wouldn’t you just know it). After hearing one two many “My dog is really “smart” because he “thinks” that (blah blah blah) I said something to the effect that dogs don’t “think” as in the same vein as humans (i.e. they don’t have a language using words and try thinking about a subject w/o using words). And that we often-me included-attribute human characteristics to animals (i.e. he’s cute, she’s depressed, he’s lonely, etc) Well that started it and it became heated. Finally, one truck driving, tatooted, gun toting NRA and Trump supporter, stood up and said “what are you-some kind of communist”.

    Later Barb said to me “you know these people down there think your some kind of intellectual and that pisses them off”. Of course she then had to say-which many here will agree-“you are about as much of an intellectual as that dog of yours”.

    Dogs do think. We know this. There are actually studies of dog cognition. There’s no doubt that their thinking is different.

    And in fact dogs do have emotions. This has been studied down to the hormonal level. For example, the same hormone that causes infants and mothers to bond—oxytocin—is at play in dogs bonding with humans.

    Very good book on the subject:

    The Genius of Dogs
    by Brian Hare

    https://www.amazon.com/Genius-Dogs-Smarter-Than-Think/dp/0142180467/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1467047419&sr=1-1&keywords=genius+of+dogs

    Hare is a scientist, and he takes you through how he set up cognitive studies for dogs and where it took him.

    #47210
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    Yeah, dogs think and feel. They just do it in their own way. Dog-thinking. Dog-feeling.

    The ‘feeling’ issue links to the animal-rights issue. Should humans be exerimenting on other beings that feel pain? Dogs? Cats? Monkeys? Rabbits? Mice? Etc.

    I like to wonder about other ‘reality-experiences’ btw. Do galaxies ‘think’ ?
    Do they ‘feel’ ? Universes? Quarks? Well, who knows.

    w
    v

    #47216
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    I like to wonder about other ‘reality-experiences’ btw. Do galaxies ‘think’ ?
    Do they ‘feel’ ? Universes? Quarks? Well, who knows.

    Well as it happens, I know what galaxies think about statements like that.

    They are not amused.

    .

    #47226
    waterfield
    Participant

    Well-I “think” it depends on how we define “thinking”. IMO thought can only occur through a language. (in the field of special education “thought” is part of the language arts and is often part of non-verbal expression).And that’s different than emotion. My dog is frightened of extremely loud noises (can you imagine-she was born to be a “gun dog”. ) She will bolt on me when that occurs. They react to their emotion whether it be fright, hunger, etc. Many of us “want” to believe that dogs think like we do. An example is that movie “Hachi”. A true story based in Japan about a dog whose master dies and the dog returns to the train station day after day and year after year even though his master never gets off the train. Most everyone that has seen the movie expresses sadness over the poor dog who keeps waiting for the owner who never shows up. But there’s no evidence to prove the dog is sad, lonely, and or misses his owner. Nevertheless, we attribute how we would be in that situation. An equal explanation is that the dog returns everyday out of habit. Or the dog merely “enjoys” of feels “comfortable” (see I’m doing it) around the people who pay him attention. In that light it’s not a sad story at all.

    Maybe I am a communist.

    • This reply was modified 8 years, 6 months ago by waterfield.
    • This reply was modified 8 years, 6 months ago by waterfield.
    • This reply was modified 8 years, 6 months ago by waterfield.
    #47231
    Avatar photoBilly_T
    Participant

    Waterfield,

    There is another option there. Some of us think that dogs have a different way of thinking. So we don’t think they think like we think. We think they think in a different manner than we think.

    It’s not anthropomorphism. It’s actually a kinda recognition that we’re not alone in our abilities. That we’re not the only folks who can put two and two together. In fact, I think it’s pretty clear that some “animals” are a lot smarter than we are. I’d put dolphins, whales and elephants in that category, and I think dogs are pretty sharp, too, in their own way. I mean, they get us to feed them, scratch their belly and pick up their droppings, all without giving us a cent.

    ;>)

    #47232
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    Well-I “think” it depends on how we define “thinking”. IMO thought can only occur through a language.

    The better term to use then is cognition. For that matter, not all human cognition takes the form of “internal language.” Fact is, there’s a good chance only a small percentage of it does.

    For example, the ability to make inferences from only partial data. Dogs do that regularly.

    And on this?

    But there’s no evidence to prove the dog is sad, lonely, and or misses his owner.

    Yes there is evidence that that is what is happening.

    See, there is an entire terrain of studies out there dedicated to examining cognition in dogs, and also emotional structures.

    Unless you actually KNOW that data, you’re just winging it on what are probably dated assumptions.

    ===
    =-==

    The Hormone That Bonds Humans to Dogs
    The hormone oxytocin has evolved into playing a major role in bringing humans and dogs together

    http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-hormone-that-bonds-humans-to-dogs-1442503702

    Around the time of birth, female mammals release oxytocin in some brain regions, and the hormone allows them to register and recall their offspring’s smell, appearance or voice. Oxytocin rewards such maternal behavior with feelings of well-being.

    More oxytocin innovations emerged. In the eons since mammals proliferated on earth, some primate and rodent species independently evolved pair-bonding (that is, sexual and/or social monogamy). In the brain, oxytocin is heavily involved in this as well. And as primates developed complex you-scratch-my-back-I-scratch yours relations, evolution adapted oxytocin to mediate the formation of trust and altruistic feelings toward fellow members of one’s group.

    So evolution’s oxytocin R&D team has filed one compelling new patent after another. But something truly striking occurred sometime in the past 50,000 years (which is to say, over the last 0.01% of the time during which oxytocin has existed). During that evolutionary blink of an eye, humans embarked on something new, with oxytocin again in a leading role: the domestication of wolves.

    How did this occur? Reporting in the journal Science, Miho Nagasawa of Azabu University in Japan and colleagues observed that modern dogs and their owners secrete oxytocin when they interact with each other. Remarkably, dogs who gaze the most at their humans during interactions had the biggest oxytocin rise—as did their humans.

    The scientists then spritzed oxytocin (or saline, as a control treatment) up the dogs’ noses. The oxytocin caused female dogs to gaze more at their humans…whose own oxytocin levels rose as a result. All of this only affected dogs and their owners. Hand-reared wolves and their owners didn’t react in the same way to the treatment, and dogs administered oxytocin didn’t gaze any longer at humans who weren’t familiar to them. In other words, dog and human brains seem to have evolved at lightning speed to co-opt oxytocin for bonding between our species.

    Even cooler is this teaching of a new trick to an old hormone—showing how evolution is a tinkerer, not an inventor, improvising with whatever is handy. Once humans and wolves started down this strange path together, their brains would never be the same.

    #47233
    Avatar photonittany ram
    Moderator

    Well, of course dogs think differently than we do, but they are still thinking. Language isn’t required to think.

    http://www.cnn.com/2010/LIVING/11/18/intelligent.dog.psychology/

    #47242
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    Well-I “think” it depends on how we define “thinking”. IMO thought can only occur through a language

    …Maybe I am a communist.

    ======================

    Yeah, i suppose it depends on how we define/use ‘thinking’ and ‘language’.

    If by ‘thinking/feeling’ we mean somethin purty close to human experiences,
    then thats an issue science can help answer.

    When i toy-around with ideas like “do galaxies think/feel” I do not use the word ‘think’ or ‘feel’ to mean anything similar to the human-experience.
    And thus, science is probably no help, and its all just wild-speculation. Which i enjoy 🙂

    Perhaps quarks and universes and planets and galaxies and water and plutonium,
    think/feel in some unique ‘beyond-human-science-and-understanding’ kinda way.

    The Gaia idea, for example. Who knows.

    ….what was the question again? …oh yeah…dogs. The thing about dogs is, only Big dogs can think. Those little yappy, nervous, quivering dogs dont
    really have brains. They have bladders inside their skulls. Its a proven fact, comrad.

    w
    v

Viewing 9 posts - 1 through 9 (of 9 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

Comments are closed.