Recent Forum Topics › Forums › The Public House › Also stopping by to say Hi.
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May 14, 2016 at 6:54 pm #44038Billy_TParticipant
It’s been a long time, everyone. Looks like completely new digs for the nomads here. Nicely done. WordPress, etc. Hope everyone is healthy, happy and safe.
Anyway, have skimmed a coupla of the threads here, and a lot of interesting comments to be sure. Good discussions about Bernie, Identity Politics, Jill Stein — whom I voted for last time.
Thought I’d post a link to this excellent article — one of the best I’ve read recently on the state of American politics. It’s usefully seen along with some of those posted in the Identity Politics thread. Advanced apologies if it’s already been mentioned here.
https://www.jacobinmag.com/2016/05/white-workers-bernie-sanders-clinton-primary-racism/
After decades of being told white workers would never support socialism because they’re racist, we’re now told that they support the socialist candidate because they are racist. Yes, this is where liberals are in the year 2016.
How did we get here? How did we get to the point at which universalist, social-democratic politics — the antithesis of Reagan’s welfare queen and the very set of policies we’ve long been told white workers would never support out of racist spite — have become the last gasp of white supremacy? Where a working-class program — that would disproportionately help women and people of color — is the new white flight?
Personally, I don’t think Sanders goes nearly far enough (to the left), and I wish America could handle actual anti-capitalist politics once again. It used to be a normal (albeit relatively small) part of the discourse in America, at least before WWII. See The Age of Acquiescence, by Steve Fraser for the history of anti-capitalist dissent and activism. But compared to everyone else, Sanders is head and shoulders better.
Too bad Hillary is going to win the nom. “Not as bad as Trump” is just not good enough for what ails us . . . .
Take care, everyone.
May 14, 2016 at 7:03 pm #44044znModeratorWelcome aboard BT. The “pending moderation” thing is a spam screen. Everyone only gets it once, on their first post only. After the first one it’s done and you;re free to post. I just now caught it. Enjoy the board. If you have any questions I am here: zackneruda@gmail.com … or ask on the board. If the spirit moves you, go join in one of the informal polls on the football board!
link: http://theramshuddle.com/topic/what-do-you-think-goffs-ceiling-is-compared-to-other-rams-qbs/
link: http://theramshuddle.com/topic/informal-poll-are-you-settling-in-with-the-goff-pick/
May 14, 2016 at 7:48 pm #44046bnwBlockedHi.
The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.
Sprinkles are for winners.
May 14, 2016 at 8:35 pm #44048wvParticipantWelcome Comrad Truax.
Good to see you BT.
What are you reading this week?
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vMay 14, 2016 at 9:07 pm #44051TSRFParticipantBilly f’n T…
Glad you finally found us! Please, don’t be a stranger.
Who’s next?
My money is on Leslie….
May 14, 2016 at 9:11 pm #44052Billy_TParticipantThanks, Zack. Appreciate the welcome, and will likely check out the football forums, too.
May 14, 2016 at 9:14 pm #44053Billy_TParticipantHey, WV.
Finishing up The Magic Mountain, by Thomas Mann. Taking a break from the political books for a bit. Am determined, however, to read a lot more, and write a lot more. Not being as productive along those lines as I should be.
And you? What’s on your reading list?
May 14, 2016 at 9:14 pm #44054Billy_TParticipantThanks, TSRF.
Hope all is well.
May 14, 2016 at 9:17 pm #44055Billy_TParticipantbnw,
Don’t recognize the handle. Did you post with another years ago? Haven’t been on the Huddle in — am guessing — five years? Maybe more.
May 14, 2016 at 9:46 pm #44058bnwBlockedBob ‘N’ Weave. I say Hi to everyone that drops by.
The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.
Sprinkles are for winners.
May 14, 2016 at 10:37 pm #44063ZooeyModeratorI just read that article today. I had never heard of jacobinmag before.
I thought about posting it here myself, and asking wv’s thoughts since West Virginia gets a healthy mention in the article.
I’m still mulling over the argument put forward. I do think there is a pretty condescending attitude to minimum wage workers in society. I read a lot of disrespectful stuff a month or two ago when the minimum wage increase was announced in California. Honestly, a lot of the opposition to increasing the minimum wage was not based in economics, but in contempt for the job and the people who do it.
May 14, 2016 at 10:57 pm #44065Billy_TParticipantI just read that article today. I had never heard of jacobinmag before.
I thought about posting it here myself, and asking wv’s thoughts since West Virginia gets a healthy mention in the article.
I’m still mulling over the argument put forward. I do think there is a pretty condescending attitude to minimum wage workers in society. I read a lot of disrespectful stuff a month or two ago when the minimum wage increase was announced in California. Honestly, a lot of the opposition to increasing the minimum wage was not based in economics, but in contempt for the job and the people who do it.
Hey, Zooey, Jacobin has been one of my go-to zines for awhile now. Young, fresh. Great leftist perspective. It gives me hope that there may well be a true left in America, even after the last of the old “new left” floats away on that ancient iceberg.
As for the argument. From my viewpoint, today’s “liberal” is closer to yesterday’s conservative. Corey Robin has written some great stuff about how the right has “disciplined” liberals from at least Reagan on, and that, whether they know it or not — usually they don’t — they’ve embraced most of the conservative agenda by osmosis. About the only thing that really differentiates them now are the cultural issues, views on race, gender, sexuality, etc. etc. They’re so close on matters of war, the surveillance state, the economy, capitalism, there’s not really a dime’s worth of difference. It’s on matters of race and so on that there is still a significant gap.
So, to make a long story short: Liberals fall waaay short of being any kind of real alternative to conservatism because they refuse to deal with massive class divisions, and they support capitalism just as much as conservatives. I reject liberalism primarily because of this. I side with them on racial, ethnic, gender, sexuality issues . . . but I think they’re absolutely wrong on the best way to close those gaps. Rather than making it easier for the 1% to look more like America, rather than making it easier for women and minorities to climb proverbial ladders of success . . . . I think we need to get rid of the climb itself. True egalitarianism and society based on full democracy, including the economy, where all hierarchies are shattered, all pyramids pulled down, also takes care of the ginormous racial, gender and sexual gaps. By definition.
However, if we leave capitalism in place, those gaps will only grow bigger — even if we do have more minorities and women in power. Cuz we still have neck-breaking hierarchies in place.
The key is the flatten the pyramids. Let people actually live their lives in the pursuit of happiness, not the pursuit of staying out of the poor house.
May 15, 2016 at 6:31 am #44070PA RamParticipantHey Billy T!
Nice to hear from you! Hope all is well.
Hey–I am getting away from political books for awhile too. It’s just bringing me down. Currently reading, “Dark Money” by Jane Mayer and a Robert Reich book but took a bit of a break this week to enjoy “HEX” by Thomas Olde Heuvelt–a fun bit of an updated version of a witches tale of a curse set in modern times.
I need a break from it all. I think I’ll just climb into a hole and hide from the craziness of the world for awhile.
Hey–at least there are the Rams to get excited about. Maybe, kinda–I hope.
Take care.
- This reply was modified 8 years, 7 months ago by PA Ram.
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. " Philip K. Dick
May 15, 2016 at 7:43 am #44073nittany ramModeratorHey Billy T!
Nice to hear from you! Hope all is well.
Hey–I am getting away from political books for awhile too. It’s just bringing me down. Currently reading, “Dark Money” by Jane Mayer and a Robert Reich book but took a bit of a break this week to enjoy “HEX” by Thomas Olde Heuvelt–a fun bit of an updated version of a witches tale of a curse set in modern times.
I need a break from it all. I think I’ll just climb into a hole and hide from the craziness of the world for awhile.
Hey–at least there are the Rams to get excited about. Maybe, kinda–I hope.
Take care.
Hi Billy. Good to see you again.
I am currently reading “Tyrannosaur Chronicles” by Dr. David Hone. It’s basically a detailed description of everything currently known about tyrannosaurids. I also am reading “The Invaders” by professor Pat Shipman in which he argues that Neanderthals were wiped out by modern humans.
I just finished a fun trilogy about post apocalyptic Washington County, NY by James Howard Kunstler. The books of the trilogy are “World Made By Hand”, The Witch of Hebron” and “A History of the Future”. I have to admit part of what made these books so enjoyable is that I live in Bennington, VT which is not far from Washington County so I recognize many of the references/descriptions of the towns, terrain etc.
Anyway, don’t be a stranger. The prospect of a Clinton or a Trump presidency is pretty depressing for sure. However, I am happy that a true progressive like Sanders has done so well. He seems to have gotten a lot of young people interested in progressive politics. Maybe another 4 years of being mired in the status quo will help get the country behind someone like ELizabeth Warren or Jill Stein.
May 15, 2016 at 8:11 am #44074PA RamParticipantI just finished a fun trilogy about post apocalyptic Washington County, NY by James Howard Kunstler. The books of the trilogy are “World Made By Hand”, The Witch of Hebron” and “A History of the Future”. I have to admit part of what made these books so enjoyable is that I live in Bennington, VT which is not far from Washington County so I recognize many of the references/descriptions of the towns, terrain etc.
I may check those out. I read “The Long Emergency” years ago and enjoyed it but found it very depressing. Of course–I’m trying for lighter stuff right now so….I may wait. As for “The Invaders”–well, everyone knows it was aliens that destroyed the Neanderthals. At one time wasn’t the theory that we were in the same line as neanderthals? And now we are from different branches? They couldn’t compete with us and our unique skill of destroying things.
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. " Philip K. Dick
May 15, 2016 at 8:32 am #44075nittany ramModeratorI just finished a fun trilogy about post apocalyptic Washington County, NY by James Howard Kunstler. The books of the trilogy are “World Made By Hand”, The Witch of Hebron” and “A History of the Future”. I have to admit part of what made these books so enjoyable is that I live in Bennington, VT which is not far from Washington County so I recognize many of the references/descriptions of the towns, terrain etc.
I may check those out. I read “The Long Emergency” years ago and enjoyed it but found it very depressing. Of course–I’m trying for lighter stuff right now so….I may wait. As for “The Invaders”–well, everyone knows it was aliens that destroyed the Neanderthals. At one time wasn’t the theory that we were in the same line as neanderthals? And now we are from different branches? They couldn’t compete with us and our unique skill of destroying things.
Yeah, modern humans are no longer considered the descendants of Neanderthals. We share a common ancestor, probably Homo heidelbergensis. However, it is apparent that modern humans and Neanderthals interbred on occasion because you can find some of their DNA in modern humans. Their DNA is linked to clotting disorders and depression in us. Apparently a modern human male and a neanderthal female could produce viable offspring but the reverse isn’t true. None of the genes from the Y chromosome of neanderthal males has been found in modern humans. The neanderthal Y chromosome has three alleles that produce an antigen that would cause an immune response in modern human females that would cause any fetus to be spontaneously aborted.
May 15, 2016 at 9:36 am #44081bnwBlockedApparently a modern human male and a neanderthal female could produce viable offspring but the reverse isn’t true. None of the genes from the Y chromosome of neanderthal males has been found in modern humans. The neanderthal Y chromosome has three alleles that produce an antigen that would cause an immune response in modern human females that would cause any fetus to be spontaneously aborted.
I’ve tried to keep up on this but never knew that. Very interesting. Explains why there is only one Ron Perlman.
The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.
Sprinkles are for winners.
May 15, 2016 at 10:05 am #44082bnwBlockedThe key is the flatten the pyramids. Let people actually live their lives in the pursuit of happiness, not the pursuit of staying out of the poor house.
Wouldn’t that be great? No monetary worry? Your life pursuit according to whim? After all that is the reality in all the Star Trek series. To think that the best cure for cancer never came about because the one scientist capable wasn’t born due to the economic necessity of birth control for his parents or necessary ancestor whether by the pill or abortion, it is a sad situation for our species. Yet the reality is peoples wants and needs rely upon other people to provide the material and labor in so very many jobs that people if given the choice would rather not do if not for their personal economic necessity.
In small groups perhaps it could work well but your pursuit of happiness requirement would be nearly impossible to meet especially in larger groups. Even barter requires people doing what they don’t necessarily like or want to do. So has every other system of human association from women screaming at mates that they should be in labor to the well stratified systems of socialism and communism throughout history.
Now if you wish to say that certain qualities of life should be outside of personal economic necessity say no rent, utilities, education, food, healthcare etc. should not be out of pocket then the real life examples are always dependent upon an authoritarian ruler that controls an amazingly rich natural resource as in petroleum. There are small oil kingdoms in which this is the case to some extent such as Brunei and Kuwait and previously Libya. This as close as it gets on this planet.
The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.
Sprinkles are for winners.
May 15, 2016 at 10:20 am #44085bnwBlockedCorrection- should not be——-should read———should be out of pocket
Now if you wish to say that certain qualities of life should be outside of personal economic necessity say no rent, utilities, education, food, healthcare etc. should be out of pocket
The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.
Sprinkles are for winners.
May 15, 2016 at 12:11 pm #44087Billy_TParticipantHey, Nittany and PA.
Hope all is well in the Keystone state.
Speaking of witches. Recently read a fascinating history of the the Salem witch trials, by Stacy Schiff. It takes a little bit to get used to her style — I’ve read two other bios from her, and this is quite different — but it’s worth it. Goes into great detail and depth about context, regional history, background, etc. etc. Tries to tell the story as if from the point of view of the accusers and the accused, and really presents a sense of the mass hysteria and crackup, without being judgmental. Schiff pretty much leaves that up to the reader.
May 15, 2016 at 12:25 pm #44090Billy_TParticipantbnw,
The “pursuit of happiness” is not a requirement at all. It’s an option, one that should be available to all, as long as you don’t harm others. But it’s not a requirement. The real key is to put aside all of our preconceptions, the ones we’ve been indoctrinated in for centuries, and those that are more recent.
All of them are fictional. The concept of money, markets, capitalism, religion, nation-states — all of these are imagined orders, imaginery orders that we’ve accepted as the norm, or natural, and they’re not. They don’t exist in nature. We invented them. Which means we can invent something quite different, and imagine quite different fictions and implement them. It’s up to us.
Yuval Harari, in his fantastic TED talk, talks about this, though indirectly.
So, let’s start there. Let’s start with a blank slate. There is actually no reason, whatsoever, that we ever had to burden ourselves with a lifetime of endless work, and with massive inequalities based on more absurd fictions of wildly different valuation of our time. There is absolutely no sane reason why we accept the system of capitalism, which is based on slavery, and guarantees massive inequality. There is no legitimate, rational, logical or sane reason why we willingly accept a system which is based on the theft of our personal production, in order to radically inflate the wealth of the few. There is actually no rational, valid, legitimate reason why (for instance) a hedge fund manager makes billions and teachers, nurses, social workers or poets make a fraction of a fraction as much.
Who decides that pay? A tiny, tiny fraction of the population, all of whom benefit ginormously from that decision/delusion, at massive cost to the majority. Why does the majority accept this? Why did it ever accept this?
There is no “natural” support for any of it, and there are thousands of better ways to organize society than the one we have now. I have several ideas for far better systems . . . .
May 15, 2016 at 12:51 pm #44094bnwBlockedSupplying peoples wants and needs. How is that done in your ideas of better systems?
The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.
Sprinkles are for winners.
May 15, 2016 at 1:14 pm #44095Billy_TParticipantSupplying peoples wants and needs. How is that done in your ideas of better systems?
Community-based economies. Cooperative. Democratized. The people own the means of production, directly. Not through proxies. Not through parties or any other power center. But literally “the people,” directly. Every single citizen, with equal say, share, voice. No private ownership of that. Capitalism does not exist.
The communal, cooperative economies are federated to one another. Linked. Work cooperatively with each other. Small is beautiful, linked to small is beautiful. There are local, regional and national assemblies. No elections or political parties. Citizens do their civil stint via lottery, in a peace-corp-like scenario. No permanent power centers/bases, anywhere. No permanent hierarchies, and the temporary ones are as close to flat as possible, and they don’t involve the valuation of our time. They’re for facilitation of production, not “creating wealth.”
We produce for need and to order, not for exchange and future returns. We would do away with capitalism’s M-C-M plus exchange value. As in, Money used to buy labor (as a commodity) in order to produce Commodities in exchange or Money for the capitalist. That’s gone. We now produce to order, only, for need. We make only what we need, what people have decided they need, democratically, plus rainy-day, and trade surplus for commodity exchange with other communities.
We gather that info via those assemblies, modernize this process to include software databases for totals, trends, predictions, etc. etc. Ongoing updates, with human, manual decisions always taking precedence over the database. Database as helper/tool/assistant only. Real democracy, including the economy, always at the forefront.
Will talk about money replacement later. It’s a key part of this.
May 15, 2016 at 1:41 pm #44098bnwBlockedThat is nothing new. That has been done before in communes and Co-ops. It can work reasonably well at a small scale for some time. Given your example lets say you and I contribute our work and bumper crop while our neighbors plan to do less or nothing at all? What then? Peoples wants and needs. You will never get past it. Reality isn’t people with identical work ethic and no systems remain static so bumper crops are not the norm. No system can last long under such circumstance.
The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.
Sprinkles are for winners.
May 15, 2016 at 2:51 pm #44099Billy_TParticipantThat is nothing new. That has been done before in communes and Co-ops. It can work reasonably well at a small scale for some time. Given your example lets say you and I contribute our work and bumper crop while our neighbors plan to do less or nothing at all? What then? Peoples wants and needs. You will never get past it. Reality isn’t people with identical work ethic and no systems remain static so bumper crops are not the norm. No system can last long under such circumstance.
The new thing about the above would be its legal status as system for the entire nation. Via the constitution. Via the chosen system for society. It would be the way we did things, and the capitalist way would be illegal. There would be no legal structure any more for it — and it can’t function without that. There would be no legal tender that could be used for capitalism, either. No trade agreements. No treaties. No currency valuations, etc. No stock market. No support in any way, shape or form for the old system.
With the help of previous experiments, and some current ones, like Parecon, I’ve come up with a way to do away with debt, deficits and funding problems. For the first time in history, an entire nation, an entire society, an entire econo-system would divorce all funding mechanisms from gross sales/surplus. Sales would no longer be linked in any way, shape or form to pay, or taxes, or community/societal funding. There would be no need for taxes any longer.
The revenue stream for all funding would, instead, come from external, publicly owned “banks,” with virtually limitless resources, because numbers are limitless, and digits, not dollars, would be assigned — per community, region, nationally and individually (for work done). Every individual would have their own account, built up from work done. Communities, regions and the nation overall would have their accounts, too.
Again, more later on this . . .
May 15, 2016 at 2:59 pm #44100Billy_TParticipantNo system can last long under such circumstance.
Btw, this is true of capitalism. It’s only survived this long because it is constantly being bailed out by governments. More than 100 times, just since 1970, to the tune of trillions. See David Harvey’s The Enigma of Capital for the play by play of that, plus a great deal more.
Capitalism’s own internal contradictions, especially the inevitable killing of its own consumer base, over and over and over again, would have destroyed it utterly a century ago, if not for the massive support of governments around the world, led by ours. It’s permanently dependent upon government, to a degree the world has never seen for any economic system, and this is a global now — also something unprecedented for economic systems.
What I suggest above would end this endless pattern of crisis, recession, depression, bailout, rinse and repeat, and it would end the massive waste, inefficiency, world-altering pollution endemic with capitalism . . . all of which are truly unsustainable, even with government protection and support.
Etc.
May 15, 2016 at 6:44 pm #44106bnwBlockedOK so my community has a surplus of sweet corn and all the surrounding communities have a surplus of sweet corn with only 5 days before its no longer sweet and no one wants it. My community really needs antibiotics and oil filters. How does your system make it happen?
The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.
Sprinkles are for winners.
May 15, 2016 at 7:52 pm #44110Billy_TParticipantOK so my community has a surplus of sweet corn and all the surrounding communities have a surplus of sweet corn with only 5 days before its no longer sweet and no one wants it. My community really needs antibiotics and oil filters. How does your system make it happen?
Every community would have access to doctors, hospitals, etc. etc. We’d make sure everyone had access close enough to them to maintain the highest quality of health, safety, welfare, etc. Those doctors and hospitals would be ordering for need, just like individual citizens. They’d base that on their own community first, plus, again, enough surplus for emergencies and exchange. It’s highly unlikely they’d run out of these things, but if they did, they’d work cooperatively with neighboring doctors, hospitals, etc. etc. to get what they need.
As for that food? Unlike with our current system, where we produce in hopes of future sales (and marketing successes), and then trash roughly half of all of our food production, this alternative would focus solely on need, and would produce to order, as mentioned above. There would be the least possible amount of waste because of that. It would be all about the needs of citizens, instead of the desire for a few to make a killing. It would be citizen-centric, consumer-centric, health-centric, not profit-centric or business-owner-centric. All publicly owned and managed, democratically.
And people can “buy” stuff too. It’s not a barter-only system. They can own a home. They get digits in their accounts for work done, and those are debited when they purchase things at outlets, which are all publicly owned and operated. Schools, hospitals, science labs, parks, arts, recreation, utilities, etc. — they all would have budgets, funded publicly, derived democratically according to need. Communities would vote on what kind of production they want in their towns, and local production would be geared to meeting those needs. Their funding would come straight from those publicly owned and operated banks, so no tax collection is ever needed, and there is no debt.
The towns, regions and national assemblies would make sure this fits, works together, is updated, organized for efficiency, according to democratic goals, methods and processes. Constant chances to refine all of this as we go, with new leadership always rotating in. Since it’s set up cooperatively, and never competitively, the exchange of information is far more efficient, complete and beneficial than capitalism will ever be able to muster . . . . because “trade secrets” and “competitive advantage” force tremendous inefficiencies and the jamming up of knowledge.
This is completely different. We’d all be in it together. Like one big family, or team, but with plenty of room for dissent and disagreement, etc. And no centers of power, anywhere.
May 15, 2016 at 8:02 pm #44112bnwBlockedWith food you can’t “produce to order” because of all the variables that can go wrong in bringing a crop to market. You still don’t answer how disparate items can be obtained for each other. There are always centers of power.
The upside to being a Rams fan is heartbreak.
Sprinkles are for winners.
May 15, 2016 at 8:14 pm #44114Billy_TParticipantWith food you can’t “produce to order” because of all the variables that can go wrong in bringing a crop to market. You still don’t answer how disparate items can be obtained for each other. There are always centers of power.
Yes, you certainly can produce food to order. It’s how humans did things for thousands and thousands of years prior to capitalism. Now we produce for profits, not for need, efficiency, health. The alternative system would change all of that.
And, yes, I did answer your question. We’d establish what communities need, set up production accordingly, and if anything falls through the cracks, we work cooperatively with our neighbors to fill in those gaps. That would include the production of antibiotics and so on. Again, health providers would order what they needed from local facilities set up to meet those orders, and their accounts would be debited per order. Prices and wages would all be established before hand, democratically. We’d ensure that wages and prices match well enough to provide a healthy, comfortable standard of living for everyone. Funding comes from the public banks. It would be steady state. No recessions, depressions and so on, because there is no profit involved, no “futures” to deal with, no speculation, no Wall Street. No private businesses or business ventures of any kind.
And, no, in this system, there are no centers of power. It’s set up to prevent them. Power is literally dispersed into the hands of every citizen, and every citizen holds the same degree of that power, voice, share in the fruits of society.
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