A plea

Trump wants Sanders as an opponent because he knows he can beat him in those decisive states. Nevertheless, if he is the nominee I will fight for him like I’ve never fought before. I only hope if a “moderate” is nominated each of you will do the same. The stakes are really high here.

Trump has already beat a moderate in those decisive states…. the question is, will HRC, Biden, Bloom, Pocahantas, Mayor Pete etc stand behind and rally behind Bernie, like he did with HRC in 2016?

I agree WV, I think Bernie can kick Trump’s ass…..

Polls show Sanders with the widest margin of polling advantage of all the potential opponents to Trump. But I agree that those polls are not meaningful right now. There are months to go, and…whatever.

I also agree that Sanders is a better debate match up to Trump than any of the other candidates.

That aside…W’s central point is to encourage us to vote blue no matter who because…Trump.

And I will preface what I say by first pointing out that, thanks to the electoral college, it makes no difference whatsoever whom I vote for, or if I vote at all. I am in California, and the corpse of Hubert Humphrey would beat Trump in this state by at least 4 million votes.

I’m not sure where my heart will be on that day, though. It depends in large part on how the nominee gets named.

If it is apparent that the Democrat establishment conspires to prevent Bernie from getting the nomination, that will be the end of it for me. Because if – as polls suggest – Bernie wins the plurality in nearly every state, and the plurality of delegates by a substantial margin – and they deal him out…

I don’t know how I can possibly interpret that other than that the Democrat establishment itself prefers to run the risk of another term of Trump, to running the risk of a Sanders presidency. That conclusion is inescapable because they KNOW what Waterfield knows, that the votes of Sanders supporters are very much in doubt. That will be undeniable proof that they would rather lose to Trump, but retain control of the party (and, btw, wrap their arms around the coffers of money that will pour into the party in opposition to Trump) then to risk Sanders winning, and his likely reconfiguration of the party away from corporate fealty. The Democrats will have told all of us to go to hell. In my view, they will have spit in the face of W’s sentiment: “The stakes are really high here. For some of us older voters its no longer about us-its about our children and their children.”

I may be giving him too much credit, but maybe Trump is using reverse psychology here. As in, by saying he wants Bernie, he is hoping the DNC does the opposite.

By the way, Ho Chi Minh would need to provide papers that he was born in the USA. I’m not sure, but that may be a problem for him.

Isn’t Mr. Magoo already VP?

I think Sanders is a bigger threat than any of the other candidates to Trump. And I think that is because Sanders competes with Trump in the one category of voters that put Trump over the top, and that is anti-establishment votes. People pissed off with the establishment put Trump in the White House.

Not only do I think the center has shifted, as zn pointed out, I think the division in this country is no longer the same old Left/Right division. I think it is undergoing a kind of Hegelian shift from that to Establishment/Anti-Establishment.

Sanders will bring out different voters than Clinton did, and then ALL of his competitors will. He will bring out more voters. And…he will peel away some of the Anti-Establishment voters who went for Trump the first time, but did so for economic reasons rather than racial reasons. Those people wanted a shake up, Trump promised it to them, and he broke that promise. Sanders appeals to those people. It would only take a few thousand of those to tip the election into Sanders’ hands.

One other thing about Sanders. He isn’t a hypocrite. He has not been duplicitous in his career. All of the other candidates have been, and that is the kind of vulnerability Trump has a nose for, and will exploit endlessly. Trump defines his opponents. Every single one of them. He can’t define Bernie because Bernie is what he is, always has been, and owns it.

waterfield wrote:

“That aside…W’s central point is to encourage us to vote blue no matter who because…Trump.”

Of course that is my point ! Can’t see how that was missed. Once the Democrats pick a nominee ideology becomes irrelevant in my mind. It could be Bernie, Ho Chi Minh, or Mr. Magoo for all I care. That is how dangerous I see Trump. My problem is that Trump sees Bernie as an easy target. Less so for the others. And I think he is right. If he’s the nominee I pray I’m wrong.

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Nah, I wont vote for a pro-one-percent-Dem, if he is the nominee because the pro-one-percent-DNC cheats Bernie, AGAIN. I’m sure a lot of progressives will go ahead and hold their noses and vote for a pro-corporate-dem, but a lot of progressives will just stay home, vote Green Party or….move to Thailand.

w
v

waterfield wrote:

“And I think that is because Sanders competes with Trump in the one category of voters that put Trump over the top, and that is anti-establishment votes.”

There is truth to that. Except I heard a podcast where James Carville called this group the “I am a victim” segment not “anti establishment”. I also think most of you guys continue to forget about Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania. That’s where this election, again, will be decided and I find it hard to fathom that these hard working people are going to go for someone who wants the government to take care of them. Furthermore, the Republicans-not just Trump-but up and down on the ballot will turn the democrats arguments for 2018 on its head and make the exact same argument-you will lose your precious private health care and your own personal physicians. And those voters in those precious three states will buy it.

I am probably a little too old to say “Ok, Boomer” but that’s a damn good response to James Carville’s horseshit.

Anyone who has any experience with college costs in the last 10 years or is looking at college costs for their kids in the near future know that Carville’s “victim” rhetoric is BS.

Looking at my local university and what I payed 20 years ago, college costs have tripled in 20 years. Have wages kept pace? Hell,no.

Millions of young people are emerging with $$20,000 in student loans (if they’re lucky). Who benefits from that? Banks.

And then these kids can’t buy a house so they’re stuck paying ridiculous rent that also benefits the rich. Because they, of course, own the houses and are benefiting from the ridiculous spikes in housing costs.

And this isn’t a problem only in California or New York. It’s happening everywhere including Wisconsin and Michigan. That’s why Bernie won the democratic primary in those states in 2016.

Millions of normal people know the system is rigged against them. All of them might not understand the specifics, but they can feel it and they’re right.

Banks are making are killing off the high price of college tuition. Guess what happens if your a college grad who goes to buy a house without 20% to put down? You get to pay the bank a higher interest rate AND you get to borrow more money from the bank because you have to pay $200 every month for your student loans.

If the Democratic establishment wants to keep saying dumb things they just might lose to Trump in 2020. People know this current system is stupid and BS.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 9 months ago by Cal.

waterfield wrote:

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And by doing so you are actually equating any democrat except Sanders to Trump ! That’s just being silly. (“if you can’t play by my rules I’m taking the ball and going home”). You simply do not see how dangerous Trump is and will continue to be when it comes to the protection of the environment, the plight of the less fortunate, the health and safety of minorities and disabled, the continued destruction of our judicial system, the widening of the economic inequality,etc. You simply do not appear to care about these things.

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Well, thats not exactly true, but there’s enough truth to it, that i wont argue with your characterization.

I would phrase it like this — Trump is driving us all off a cliff at 90 miles per hour. A corporate-centrist, like Obama/Clinton/Kerry would drive us off the cliff at 75 miles per hour. Is there a difference? Yeah. 15 miles per hour.
Would that difference matter in the long run — Not when we go over the cliff.

So, yeah, i liken the Corporate-Dems to the Corporate-Reps. Trump is a Corporate-Rep. Remember the Corporate-Reps are all right there with him. Its not like any of them are fighting his agenda.

You say i dont see the danger in Trump. I say, you dont see the danger in the Corpse-dems. Ah well. Nothing personal here, for me. Just a political difference. I used to take this shit personally, but i just dont anymore. I’m resigned to the apocalypse.

w
v

waterfield wrote:

wv wrote:

waterfield wrote:

“That aside…W’s central point is to encourage us to vote blue no matter who because…Trump.”

Of course that is my point ! Can’t see how that was missed. Once the Democrats pick a nominee ideology becomes irrelevant in my mind. It could be Bernie, Ho Chi Minh, or Mr. Magoo for all I care. That is how dangerous I see Trump. My problem is that Trump sees Bernie as an easy target. Less so for the others. And I think he is right. If he’s the nominee I pray I’m wrong.

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Nah, I wont vote for a pro-one-percent-Dem, if he is the nominee because the pro-one-percent-DNC cheats Bernie, AGAIN. I’m sure a lot of progressives will go ahead and hold their noses and vote for a pro-corporate-dem, but a lot of progressives will just stay home, vote Green Party or….move to Thailand.

w
v

And by doing so you are actually equating any democrat except Sanders to Trump ! That’s just being silly. (“if you can’t play by my rules I’m taking the ball and going home”). You simply do not see how dangerous Trump is and will continue to be when it comes to the protection of the environment, the plight of the less fortunate, the health and safety of minorities and disabled, the continued destruction of our judicial system, the widening of the economic inequality,etc. You simply do not appear to care about these things.

Not trying to speak for WV, but if he votes for a Dem, it’s gonna be cancelled out anyway. His vote won’t have any impact on the election.

West Virginia is going to go overwhelmingly for Trump. As long as we have the EC, voting for the “losing” candidate in that particular state is basically like not voting at all.

waterfield wrote:

zn wrote:

waterfield wrote:

y problem is that Trump sees Bernie as an easy target.

Trump’s illusions about that shouldn’t be taken seriously, W.

The center has shifted. Sanders and his FDR style policies just don’t sound extreme.

But they do sound extreme to Trump supporters. Believe me-I talk to them every day ! It just seems so very simple to me: this is a contest. The idea of a contest is to win. Sanders will not win Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania-game over.

I dunno man. How many Sanders supporters do you talk to every day? You even seem to think they’re a small minority when in fact, it’s a movement with wide support.

Talk to more people, W.