qbs & winning percentages in comeback situations

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  • #84780
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    old article: NFL’s Most Clutch Quarterbacks

    Monte Burke

    2009

    https://www.forbes.com/2009/11/02/nfl-clutch-quarterbacks-lifestyle-sports-football-tom-brady.html#3ea09a9dcce8

    the actual list is here: https://www.forbes.com/2009/11/02/nfl-clutch-quarterbacks-lifestyle-sports-football-tom-brady_slide.html

    It’s a question that can define a quarterback’s career: Just how “clutch” is the signal-caller, turning around the game in the tightest situation?

    Former Denver Bronco John Elway is revered because of his perceived “clutchness.” The Dallas Cowboys’ QB Tony Romo is often browbeaten by the press because of his perceived lack of it.

    Traditionally, the answer to the question was derived simply by looking at the raw number of comebacks led by an NFL quarterback in the fourth quarter or in overtime. But Scott Kacsmar, a contributor to NFL statistics Web site pro-football-reference.com, has come up with another metric.

    Instead of just looking at the number of comebacks, Kacsmar decided to look at the percentage of comeback opportunities won. (See his exhaustive treatise on the subject here.) His definition of a comeback opportunity: Any time a quarterback takes the field late in the fourth quarter facing a deficit of between 1 and 8 points.

    Kacsmar is quick to point out that even this method of calculating comebacks has its flaws. A QB may lead a drive late that puts his team ahead only to have his defense give up a game-losing score. Or, a quarterback may be put in an impossible situation, like getting the ball on his own 20-yard line for a potential game-winning drive with only one second on the clock.

    “Drew Brees has a lot of failed comebacks, but he has thrown five go-ahead touchdowns in games that eventually resulted in losses,” says Kacsmar. “Some defenses are better at protecting leads in the fourth quarter than others.”

    But even with those caveats in mind, Kacsmar’s methodology is still fascinating. The Philadelphia Eagles’ Donovan McNabb has sometimes been seen as a choker. Kacsmar has him ranked in the top 10. And which Manning brother is better in the clutch? You might be surprised.

    Behind the Numbers

    We asked Kacsmar to come up with a list of the top 10 active quarterbacks with the best comeback percentages. We narrowed the list to veteran QBs, that is, ones with at least five seasons under their belts. Some fine young quarterbacks–like the Baltimore Ravens’ Joe Flacco, the Atlanta Falcons’ Matt Ryan and the Green Bay Packers’ Aaron Rodgers–don’t yet have a large enough sample size to draw from.

    Topping the list is the New England Patriots’ Tom Brady, who has converted 21 of 33 comeback opportunities (64%) in his 10 years in the NFL. Brady has led three fourth-quarter come-from-behind wins on the world’s greatest stage, the Super Bowl. He did it in 2002 (against the St. Louis Rams), in 2004 (against the Carolina Panthers) and in 2005 (against the Philadelphia Eagles).

    Maybe Brady learned something when he was a kid: As a young boy, he was in the stands for one of the great comebacks in NFL history: the 1982 NFC Championship game in which Joe Montana hit Dwight Clark in the end zone, in a play known simply as “the Catch,” to lift the San Francisco 49ers over the Dallas Cowboys.

    No. 2 is Ben Roethlisberger of the Pittsburgh Steelers, who has had 16 comebacks in 31 opportunities (52%). His greatest came in last year’s Super Bowl, which culminated in a perfect touchdown pass to a tiptoeing Santonio Holmes.

    The Brothers Manning

    The Colts’ Peyton Manning may have better career numbers than his younger brother, Giants’ QB Eli, but Eli trumps Peyton in clutchness. Eli, third on our list, has converted 13 comebacks in 27 opportunities (48%) to Peyton’s 29 in 65 (45%).

    Eli’s greatest clutch performance came in the Super Bowl two years ago, when he found Plaxico Burress in the end zone for a touchdown that would top the previously undefeated Patriots. That drive included David Tyree’s miraculous catch against his own helmet.

    And a couple of old gunslingers made the list too. The retired-unretired-retired-unretired Brett Favre checks in at No. 7. The Minnesota Vikings’ quarterback, now in his 19th season, has converted 29 comebacks in a whopping 93 opportunities (31%).

    The Arizona Cardinals’ veteran Kurt Warner, now in his 12th NFL season, rounds out our list at No. 10, with eight wins in 37 opportunities (22%).

    Warner’s career, however, is perhaps the greatest comeback of all: He went from getting released by the Green Bay Packers in 1994, to stocking grocery store shelves, to winning a Super Bowl in 2000 against the Tennessee Titans with a game-winning touchdown pass in the fourth quarter.

    #84782
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    old article: Aaron Rodgers’ hidden weakness
    Scott Kacsmar

    2013

    http://insider.espn.com/nfl/insider/story/_/id/9711636/nfl-why-aaron-rodgers-not-truly-great

    Trailing 34-30 with 3:47 remaining on Sunday, Aaron Rodgers had a chance to lead a game-winning touchdown drive to help the Green Bay Packers escape with a victory in Cincinnati. With the stage set for a classic finish after a wild game, this should have been a legacy-growing moment for the player many believe is the best quarterback in the NFL, right?

    Not so fast. The Packers are just 5-24 (.172) in games when Rodgers had the ball in the fourth quarter, trailing by 1-8 points. Five comebacks in 29 tries? Tony Romo, considered by some to be a choker, led five comeback wins in the 2012 season alone. Among active starters, only Cam Newton (2-16) has a worse record than Rodgers.

    He has numerous passing records, both a regular-season and Super Bowl MVP, but this is the one area on the résumé that continues to be a sore spot for Rodgers. Sunday was one of his worst finishes yet.

    This time, while the drive was long in plays (13), it ended at the Cincinnati 20 after Rodgers’ pass was tipped on fourth-and-5. That was the third tipped ball of the drive, as the Packers’ offense ended the game with two interceptions, a fumble returned for the go-ahead score, and this turnover on downs.

    These close-game failures have been the hush-hush hallmark of coach Mike McCarthy’s otherwise successful tenure as Packers head coach. While the blame should be distributed everywhere, why are we not looking at the quarterback more?

    Rodgers arguably had one of the worst games of his career on Sunday, but like with past greats, that would have been forgiven with one game-winning drive at the end. One great drive and the Packers could be 2-1. Instead, they have started 1-2 for the second straight season.

    It’s always the same story for Green Bay: win big or lose close. When you think of Rodgers at his best, you think of the six touchdowns in Houston last year or the demolition of Atlanta in the 2010 playoffs. You don’t think of late-game heroics, because they simply do not exist in great supply. Sunday was a perfect opportunity, but it was the latest in a long line of failures for the league’s best front-running quarterback and team.

    Historically, clutch wins have been the ultimate “cream rises to the top” stat for quarterbacks. Since 1950, 10 quarterbacks have held at least a share of the record for most fourth-quarter comeback wins. The first nine are in the Hall of Fame, while the current record holder, Peyton Manning (38), will soon join them.

    There is some historical data to show the crunch-time disconnect in Green Bay. The following table lists two different career records (playoffs included) for 24 notable quarterbacks. The first mark is for fourth quarter comeback opportunities (4QC), which are defined as the team having the ball in the fourth quarter with a one-score deficit. The second record is for all game-winning drive opportunities (GWD), which include games where it was tied in the fourth quarter or overtime, in addition to games with a one-score deficit. The rankings fall according to the game-winning drive performance. Pay attention to where Rodgers ranks among some of the all-time greats.

    Among the top eight, you’ll see some of the names in the conversation for greatest QB of all time, including Brady, Montana, Peyton Manning, Marino, Elway and Staubach. Meanwhile, the bottom group is not nearly of the same caliber. That includes Rodgers’ predecessor, Brett Favre, who had many late-game meltdowns but enough opportunities to shine, as well.

    Rodgers’ 5-24 record in comeback efforts includes an 0-18 mark against teams that finished the season .500 or better. That could grow to 0-20 depending on what the 49ers and Bengals do this season.

    Green Bay’s dominance does come into play. The Packers’ historic 19-game winning streak without trailing in the fourth quarter (during the 2010 and 2011 seasons) limited the need for late-game heroics, and in fact, the 2010 Packers are one of just three Super Bowl winners to not have a single fourth-quarter comeback win. But even accounting for that great streak, Rodgers has had plenty of opportunities to rack up comebacks (29) and game-winning drives (35).

    Instead, Rodgers is two standard deviations below the average overall winning percentage for this set of quarterbacks. His record in these situations is one of the worst in NFL history, which is shocking given his overall caliber of play and success. It is hard to fathom how a team capable of winning so many games in impressive fashion cannot finish in crunch time with a prolific, record-setting quarterback and a ball-hawking defense.

    Rodgers is 9-26 (.257) when he has to score the winning points in the fourth quarter or overtime, but 49-5 (.907) in all other games, meaning the Packers are often on the winning end of blowouts. That .650 difference in winning percentage is the largest I have found in a sample of 67 quarterbacks.

    That’s more proof that Rodgers and the Packers are the greatest front-runners the NFL has ever seen, but why does this keep happening each season?

    There is a tendency for Rodgers to hold onto the ball too long as he tries to push it down the field. Sometimes, when you need just a field goal, it’s best to take what the defense gives you and get the ball out quickly. Avoiding negative plays is pivotal when field position is so important. Yet Rodgers has been sacked on 10.4 percent of his drop-backs in the fourth quarter and overtime in his 26 failed game-winning drives. That’s simply too high. It’s probably not a coincidence that Rodgers is the only quarterback in NFL history to lose five consecutive overtime games with the same team.

    Of course, some of the 26 losses speak well for him. He has put Green Bay ahead seven times in the fourth quarter when trailing, only for the team to go on to lose the game. The defense is certainly deserving of blame for this.

    Green Bay has allowed 20 game-winning drives since 2008, which is third-most in the league over that span. Last season, there was the Hail Mary to Seattle’s Golden Tate on that game’s final play. In Week 1 this year, Aaron Rodgers led the Packers to a 28-24 lead, only to watch Colin Kaepernick and the Niners score the game’s last 10 points for a San Francisco win.

    While it’s been a team problem, all quarterbacks have close losses in which the defense failed them. The difference — in comparison to Rodgers — is that they always seem to have more wins, too.

    Ultimately, these games are not just about the go-ahead drive, either. On Sunday, Rodgers threw a bad interception in the fourth quarter when Green Bay led 30-21 and had the ball at Cincinnati’s 27. That likely cost him a bigger lead. On the next drive, he took a sack that lost 6 yards, setting up a third-and-12 that would eventually lead to the fourth-down fumble-recovery TD that put Green Bay behind.

    The Packers have a lot of issues in games that are late and close. How much of the problem is tied to Rodgers is a debate that will only intensify if this pattern persists. But based on NFL history, I know this: If a team is in the fourth quarter of a close game, and there’s so little hope the QB will find a way to win, then that team probably doesn’t have the best quarterback in the league. For Rodgers to earn the status as one of the true greats at the position, he needs to show more in these moments.

    Sunday was another opportunity wasted.

    #84783
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    from old article: Quarterbacks and Fourth Quarter Comebacks

    Jason McKinley

    2006

    https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2006/quarterbacks-and-fourth-quarter-comebacks

    We looked at every game from the past ten seasons to see which recent quarterbacks have been the best at rallying their teams back from a deficit. And although he was known for comebacks early in his career, the top comeback quarterback might surprise you: it’s Jake Plummer, slightly ahead of Peyton Manning and Vinny Testaverde. It’s a surprising conclusion, but that’s the kind of insight rational statistical analysis can provide.

    Plummer’s comeback ability has drifted towards average since his first few seasons but his overall numbers still rate the best. Under Vince Tobin, he was a stellar 10-11 when trailing by one score in the fourth, and since then he is a solid 9-17. Peyton Manning holds the single-season mark with six comeback wins in 1999. Only the coldest, hardest, football fact-seeking Patriots fans would express surprise at Peyton Manning’s high rank, but Vinny Testaverde is a bit of an eye-opener. However, Vinny was a comeback machine in 2000 and 2001, racking up nine wins in 17 comeback chances during those two seasons with the Jets. No other quarterback in the last decade had more than eight comeback wins in any two-year span.
    Tom Brady is next on the list and, remember, these numbers do include the postseason. Brady is one of only a handful of quarterbacks with a winning record in more than three games with a fourth-quarter deficit. The others are Marc Bulger (10-5), Ben Roethlisberger (7-2), Steve Young (7-4) and John Elway (7-6). Bulger, who ranks eighth by this metric, is the only one in that group that has yet to win a Super Bowl.
    (Elway holds the NFL record for fourth-quarter comebacks with 47, but this study only includes the final three years of his career.)
    Donovan McNabb managed to crack the top 10 despite the handicap of not having Terrell Owens on his team for most of his career. When trailing by a close score in the fourth-quarter, McNabb’s record is 10-12 without Owens and 2-3 with him. McNabb is one of three NFC Champion quarterbacks in the top 10, along with Jake Delhomme and Kerry Collins. Delhomme has had at least one successful comeback in every year he’s had an opportunity. That includes his one chance playing for Mike Ditka’s Saints at the end of the 1999 season. Another of Ditka’s short-term quarterbacks with the Saints, Kerry Collins, actually did most of his comeback damage between 2000 and 2002 with the Giants. He had 11 comebacks in 23 opportunities in those three seasons, which is the highest number of comebacks for any quarterback over a three-year span.
    The interesting cases of Jon Kitna and Jay Fiedler complete the top 10. Neither has ever been considered a franchise quarterback. Neither has a rifle arm. Neither was drafted coming out of college and both had to cut their teeth in NFL Europe before getting a chance in the NFL. Yet based upon their performance, it can certainly be argued that they deserved every one of the 139 NFL starts that they’ve racked up. In the last decade, Kitna and Fiedler combined for 25 comeback wins in 60 opportunities. This is six more come from behind victories than Drew Bledsoe, with one less opportunity. That is not meant as a condemnation of Bledsoe, who has been very average in this situation.

    #84784
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    Brady, Staubach, Manning, Montana, Theisman…

    Well those are great QBs for sure.

    But what it tells me, is Football is a team game, and if you are gonna build up a good comeback record, you need a good coach and a good team.

    Belichick, Tom Landry, Bill Walsh, Joe Gibbs….etc.

    w
    v

    #84789
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    Brady, Staubach, Manning, Montana, Theisman…

    Well those are great QBs for sure.

    But what it tells me, is Football is a team game, and if you are gonna build up a good comeback record, you need a good coach and a good team.

    Belichick, Tom Landry, Bill Walsh, Joe Gibbs….etc.

    w
    v

    I put up a few articles there. In 2006 Football Outsiders did a 10 year study of qbs’s winning percentage in comeback situations. You know who had the highest winning percentage in that situation at that point? Marc Bulger (67%). The steady demolition of the Rams OL after 2006 did away with that, so, it didn’t last.

    I put a lot on the qb in that situation. Aaron Rodgers for example has been on some top teams with good coaching and he has a miserable winning percentage in that situation.

    In fact I think the reason a lot of coaches get listed as “tops” is precisely because they have qbs who are good in that situation.

    Either way, it;’s a part of the game that requires more from the qb than any other situation IMO. The qb has to execute under conditions where the defense knows they have to pass and also know that time is not on the side of the offense. That means he has to play as well as or better than normal under much more overall pressure (not just from the defense but from the clock). There’s no bailing out and saying “well we’ll score in the next series.” There often is no next series. You can’t bail. You can’t say, well we’ll do the smart thing here and live to score when we get the ball back. You have to make the plays, or it’s L-column city. To me all that adds up to put things on the qb far more than normal.

    ….

    #84794
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    Brady, Staubach, Manning, Montana, Theisman…

    Well those are great QBs for sure.

    But what it tells me, is Football is a team game, and if you are gonna build up a good comeback record, you need a good coach and a good team.

    Belichick, Tom Landry, Bill Walsh, Joe Gibbs….etc.

    w
    v

    I put up a few articles there. In 2006 Football Outsiders did a 10 year study of qbs’s winning percentage in comeback situations. You know who had the highest winning percentage in that situation at that point? Marc Bulger (67%). The steady demolition of the Rams OL after 2006 did away with that, so, it didn’t last.

    I put a lot on the qb in that situation. Aaron Rodgers for example has been on some top teams with good coaching and he has a miserable winning percentage in that situation.

    In fact I think the reason a lot of coaches get listed as “tops” is precisely because they have qbs who are good in that situation.

    Either way, it;’s a part of the game that requires more from the qb than any other situation IMO. The qb has to execute under conditions where the defense knows they have to pass and also know that time is not on the side of the offense. That means he has to play as well as or better than normal under much more overall pressure (not just from the defense but from the clock). There’s no bailing out and saying “well we’ll score in the next series.” There often is no next series. You can’t bail. You can’t say, well we’ll do the smart thing here and live to score when we get the ball back. You have to make the plays, or it’s L-column city. To me all that adds up to put things on the qb far more than normal.

    ….

    =====================

    I dont really disagree with any of that, but I’d just say “its complicated”. I definitely think there is such a thing as particular singular “comeback talent” in a sports-player (not just Quarterbacks).

    But its tricky identifying that talent. Cuz its so dependent on other factors. Bulger is the perfect example. What if he’d always played with a lousy Oline — we’d never know he had that talent.

    Kurt is an interesting case, as i recall. Not many comebacks?

    w
    v

    #84796
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    Kurt is an interesting case, as i recall. Not many comebacks?

    He’s ranked 10th on this guy’s list of 10 comeback qbs, which was written in 2009

    https://www.forbes.com/2009/11/02/nfl-clutch-quarterbacks-lifestyle-sports-football-tom-brady_slide_2.html#7e20fb343db9

    10. Kurt Warner, Arizona Cardinals

    Comebacks: 8 in 37 opportunities (22%)

    NFL Tenure: 12 years (Cardinals, New York Giants, St. Louis Rams)

    Greatest Comeback: Warner’s career is one giant comeback. He went from getting released by the Green Bay Packers, to stocking grocery store shelves, to winning a Super Bowl in 2000 against the Tennessee Titans with a game-winning touchdown pass in the fourth quarter.

    #90619
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    Career 4th Quarter Comeback/Game-Winning Drive Percentage through Week 8, 2017 (min. 16 opportunities)

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