… relocation stuff (from before the vote)

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  • #36984
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    Daniel Kaplan calls the NFL’s handling of Kroenke and the use of his application “astonishing”

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    • This topic was modified 8 years, 11 months ago by Avatar photozn.
    #37001
    Avatar photoInvaderRam
    Moderator

    geez. kroenke’s got the league by their collective balls.

    urging st louis to continue with stadium plans. bringing in this carson stadium plan. owners desperately trying to talk up spanos and carson. trying to bend kroenke to their will. i think kroenke is smiling. he knows he can do whatever he wants. it’s the only explanation i can come up with. all this talking up of the carson and st louis plans seem like rubbish cuz now the reports seem to indicate that owners want spanos and kroenke to hash out a deal. i’m even wondering if kroenke is just going to play the hand out and not budge one more inch. IF it’s the rams and chargers, i still think spanos tries to find a way to stay in san diego.

    it’s kind of sickening when you think about it.

    #37004
    Avatar photoZooey
    Moderator

    The thing is, the NFL doesn’t want the Raiders in LA.

    No matter what else happens, they are pretty deeply committed to that.

    So that just leaves the Rams and the Chargers, and how that is going to work.

    Maybe I’m wrong. But we shall see.

    #37006
    Avatar photoInvaderRam
    Moderator

    yeah. their hatred of kroenke is eclipsed only by their hatred of the raiders in los angeles.

    it also seems to be a near consensus that the inglewood stadium is better than the carson stadium in every way.

    and kroenke knows it. the owners need kroenke in la. but they do feel loyalty to spanos. so somehow they gotta find a way for the two of them to coexist.

    i still feel like spanos is going to want to make it work in san diego but will have a deal with kroenke in place should that fall through.

    #37010
    Avatar photoEternal Ramnation
    Participant

    The thing is, the NFL doesn’t want the Raiders in LA.

    No matter what else happens, they are pretty deeply committed to that.

    So that just leaves the Rams and the Chargers, and how that is going to work.

    Maybe I’m wrong. But we shall see.

    Please welcome your….. St.Louis Raiders

    #37015
    Dak
    Participant

    The most despicable part of this was SK’s scorching of STL on the way out. He was “a Missouri guy” dedicated to finding a way to stay in STL … until there was a chance to build a stadium in L.A. He’s poisoned the well here, and now all the owners know it would be a horrible situation in STL if he stays put with the Rams. The lack of fan support is a self-fulfilled prophecy. He’s such an asshole, though, that Spanos won’t play ball with him. It will take an extraordinary amount of carrot-and-stick diplomacy to get another owner to go in with SK on a deal. The guy has absolutely no ethics. He wants what he wants when he wants it.

    I actually do think that the Raiders to St. Louis is a potential solution. There is just no way that Oakland’s using public funds, and the Raiders have been trying to get a new stadium for decades. I would say that, somehow, the Raiders could make use of the STL stadium plan.

    #37018
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    The most despicable part of this was SK’s scorching of STL on the way out. He was “a Missouri guy” dedicated to finding a way to stay in STL … until there was a chance to build a stadium in L.A. He’s poisoned the well here, and now all the owners know it would be a horrible situation in STL if he stays put with the Rams. The lack of fan support is a self-fulfilled prophecy. He’s such an asshole, though, that Spanos won’t play ball with him. It will take an extraordinary amount of carrot-and-stick diplomacy to get another owner to go in with SK on a deal. The guy has absolutely no ethics. He wants what he wants when he wants it.

    I actually do think that the Raiders to St. Louis is a potential solution. There is just no way that Oakland’s using public funds, and the Raiders have been trying to get a new stadium for decades. I would say that, somehow, the Raiders could make use of the STL stadium plan.

    ======================
    Well, I don’t think he’s any more of an asshole than Georgia
    was. Or Rosenbloom. Or most of them ‘Owners.’

    Georgia was a hero to a lot of St.Louis folk. Why?
    Cause she screwed over the LA fans.

    Kroenke is an asshole to a lot of St.Louis folk.
    Cause he wants to move the team, just
    like Georgia did — for more money.

    I just think identifying with an ‘owner
    is probly, maybe, not a good idea for fans.

    I guess my point is — if Kroenke is an asshole,
    so was Georgia. But i didnt hear St.Louis
    fans saying “Georgia is an asshole for moving
    the team away from LA, to St.Louis”

    Ya know.

    Owners are billionaire Cthulhus.

    w
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    #37021
    Dak
    Participant

    Georgia is not Kroenke. And, just as she held up L.A., she held up STL for the best deal possible … a deal that was so bad that it allows the current owner to move just because the football stadium isn’t in the “top tier” of NFL stadiums. I don’t know all of what happened in L.A. with Georgia. But, with that market, they shouldn’t have had a big problem getting a new team in the past few decades. The fact that SK will build a stadium is why the NFL is willing to let him scorch STL and leave … if indeed the owners vote as I figure they will. … Ask SK’s former business partners who have sued him if he’s just like any other NFL owner. You can’t say that all owners are the same. They’re the same in that they have money and influence. But, if they were all the same, SK wouldn’t have a problem procuring the 24 votes he needs. I mean, he’s building already. The only reason they just don’t approve his relocation at this point is if they don’t trust or like the guy.

    Back to Georgia: I don’t think she was a hero. I was just happy to have NFL football back. If anyone was a hero back then, it was Kroenke. It was his decision to buy in as partner that made the move possible. If that deal falls through for STL, it would probably mean that STL wouldn’t have a franchise again.

    I think if SK had played ball with STL on the stadium, things could have been worked out. I bet Georgia never refused to talk to local and state politicians willing to work out a deal in L.A.

    • This reply was modified 8 years, 11 months ago by Dak.
    #37022
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    Btw, so much of this anger in St.Louis
    is exactly what the fans in LA went
    through back in the 90’s. I mean
    you can go back and read the letters
    and articles from the LA times, etc.

    http://articles.latimes.com/1994-05-04/news/mn-53698_1_rams-move

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    #37024
    Dak
    Participant

    Btw, so much of this anger in St.Louis
    is exactly what the fans in LA went
    through back in the 90’s. I mean
    you can go back and read the letters
    and articles from the LA times, etc.

    http://articles.latimes.com/1994-05-04/news/mn-53698_1_rams-move

    w
    v

    This situation seems a lot different than when Georgia left. Looks like Anaheim wasn’t willing to provide public support for a new stadium, whereas local leaders in STL have actually put together a plan with $400M in public funding … even though the current stadium is still being subsidized by public funds.

    Big, BIG difference.

    Kroenke has a plan in Inglewood. That’s the only reason the Rams will move back to California. I think maybe the biggest parallel is that Georgia and SK are claiming lack of fan support as a reason to move.

    I think there was a lot of sentiment in California that Georgia just would never put together a good product, and that a lot of people there said let them go. They probably thought that they’d get a new team pretty soon. It’s amazing that the NFL hasn’t returned there in the past few decades. The irony is that because nobody could replace the Rams, it opens the doors for SK to do it, even with a legitimate stadium offer on the table in STL.

    #37027
    PA Ram
    Participant

    I can’t remember how ugly it was when the Rams left L.A. but this is just nasty. It feels mean, the way SK is trying to not just leave St. Louis–but to take it off the NFL map. I have no horse in this race, obviously but I do hope that St. Louis is able to get the Raiders if this happens. They have made an effort IMO and deserve something for it.

    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. " Philip K. Dick

    #37028
    Avatar photoInvaderRam
    Moderator

    we’re all losers in this…

    well except for the owners that is.

    #37029
    Avatar photojoemad
    Participant

    Georgia was deeply disliked long before the move…

    Inherited the team that was supposed to go to Rosenbloom’s son.

    then fired her step son as GM.

    let Hacksaw, Bruskinski, Dickerson etc walk.

    She left the 2nd largest market in the USA for the lure of personal money, using the stadium as an excuse….

    http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1994-01-25/sports/1994025212_1_carroll-rosenbloom-steve-rosenbloom-georgia-frontiere

    Stepson says city better off without Rams’ Frontiere
    January 25, 1994|By Bill Tanton

    “She’d be worse for Baltimore than Bob Irsay was.”

    What?

    Who could possibly be worse for Baltimore than Irsay, whose name will live in infamy for moving the Colts to Indianapolis a decade ago?

    The woman referred to is none other than Georgia Frontiere, who owns the Los Angeles Rams and is flirting with the idea of moving her team here.

    At least she has told Anaheim, Calif., officials that on May 3 she will give 15 months’ notice so the Rams can play elsewhere beginning in 1995.

    And who is the man saying such a terrible thing over the phone from New Orleans about Frontiere?

    Why, it’s none other than Steve Rosenbloom, her stepson — and her former Rams general manager. He knows Georgia well.

    I reminded Steve: “That would be hard for anybody to do, to be worse than Irsay.”

    “Well, she could do it,” he said. “I can’t imagine why Baltimore would take another useless, squirrelly owner.”

    Does Rosenbloom take seriously Georgia’s talk about possibly moving back here?

    “I don’t take anything she says seriously,” he said. “But if she does go, it would just be the lure of the money and the fans will get shafted. It’s the Carpetbagger Show. It’s an insult to the fans.”

    Rosenbloom’s late father, Carroll, was married to Georgia when Irsay acquired the Rams in 1971, only to trade that team for the Baltimore Colts.

    The Rosenblooms didn’t know Irsay from Adam until then. They had no idea what kind of person Irsay was.

    But Carroll Rosenbloom no longer felt appreciated here in his own hometown, and when Irsay surfaced as the investor who could pull off the first swap of two NFL teams, the deal was made.

    Just as Irsay ran a great Baltimore franchise into the ground and ultimately moved it, Steve Rosenbloom says Georgia — who later married Dominic Frontiere — has destroyed the once-great Rams franchise.

    And now she is talking about moving that.

    “My dad drowned in April of 1979,” Steve said, “and Georgia inherited the Rams. I was her general manager.

    “We had all the players signed early and in August of ’79, during training camp, she wanted me to quit. She didn’t want anybody around who was close to Carroll Rosenbloom. I made her fire me.

    “That season the Rams went to the Super Bowl. [They lost to the Steelers, 31-19, in Pasadena before 103,985.] And she dismantled the organization.

    “Now the Rams can’t win and they can’t draw and they’ve told everybody they want to move. How many tickets are they going to sell now?

    “When you have a lousy team and you’re not involved in the community, you’re not going to draw. She’s blaming everybody but herself.

    “All the Colts did was win when we were in Baltimore in the ’50s and through the ’60s. We were heavily involved in the community. We had the Colt Corrals and the Colt Associates.

    “In all these years I’ve never seen fans anywhere as involved with their football team as those Baltimore fans were with the Colts. But Georgia has never made contact with the community.”

    Steve Rosenbloom says Georgia never did like Baltimore, that the place “wasn’t big enough for her. She likes Hollywood.” She admits she hasn’t set foot in this town since 1971.

    Steve says the best thing for Baltimore would be for one of the groups that tried to bring an NFL expansion team here to buy the Rams from Georgia, but she has shown no interest in selling.

    “I’d have sold the Rams long ago,” Steve said, “but Georgia can’t make a decision.”

    Steve Rosenbloom, at 49, is in the investment business in New Orleans. He doesn’t miss the NFL, though he spent 25 years in it. He goes to a Saints’ game only if one of his three sons “really wants to go.”

    “I don’t miss the game because of what it has become,” he said. “We used to have a great group of owners who were football-oriented. Today, they have used car dealers who’ve been turning back odometers for 20 years.

    “The commissioner [Paul Tagliabue] is a lawyer. What does that tell you about the league? Tagliabue used to be the guy in the league office who told us what we couldn’t do.

    “I was surprised when the league passed over Baltimore and awarded expansion teams to Charlotte and Jacksonville.

    “Now we know that Jack Kent Cooke has been planning to move his Redskins to Laurel. The brotherhood decided not to hurt one of their own and go to Baltimore.

    “The NFL doesn’t recognize what Baltimore has. What Baltimore has — good, solid, working-class people who love football — is exactly what the league needs.

    “The league needs an Ernie Accorsi, and he doesn’t even have a job right now. They’re going after the wrong people. Ernie understands the human side of the game.

    “America has to be a great country when two people like Georgia and Irsay can run a business and take an income out of it every year. It shows you what a grip pro football has on the public.”

    #37034
    Avatar photoZooey
    Moderator

    While Kroenke shat all over St. Louis, I don’t think it damages St. Louis’s chances of hosting an NFL team. It probably damages the chances of them keeping the Rams because everybody can see that relationship is shot. Like a couple where one person really, really wants to break up, there isn’t much point after a while for the partner to keep trying to mend the relationship.

    But even of the owners kind of buy into the “St. Louis isn’t fit” argument, the offer just needs to be reshuffled a bit for everyone to look at it afresh. In any event, the question will be “Is St. Louis better than the alternative?” In Kroenke’s case, the answer is No. In someone else’s situation, the answer may be yes.

    Not that that should cheer up St. Louis fans. But. Just saying.

    #37038
    Avatar photoInvaderRam
    Moderator

    as bad as st louisans are feeling right now. those feelings were just as raw when the rams left los angeles.

    i don’t think it does any good wondering whether georgia or stan were worse owners. i think at the end the fans were hurt just the same.

    and at the end of this someone is going to get cut. whether it be rams fans st louis or los angeles or chargers fans in san diego or raiders fans in oakland.

    #37039
    Avatar photoAgamemnon
    Participant

    SD moving to LA is like the Rams moving to Columbia.

    Agamemnon

    #37040
    Avatar photoInvaderRam
    Moderator

    SD moving to LA is like the Rams moving to Columbia

    yeah. not exactly like moving half way across the continent.

    #37041
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    SD moving to LA is like the Rams moving to Columbia

    yeah. not exactly like moving half way across the continent.

    See he totally lost me with that.
    I thought he meant Columbia the nation,
    and… i was mulling that over.

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    #37043
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    Martin Kilcoyne ‏@martinkilcoyne2
    The #NFL owners began voting process with each proposal voted on. Inglewood #Rams vote was 21-8-3. 21 for. 8 against. 3 abstained. #fox2

    ====

    No relocation proposal gets enough support in NFL owners’ first round of voting

    http://www.theredzone.org/BlogDescription/tabid/61/EntryId/54205/No-relocation-proposal-gets-enough-support-in-NFL-owners–first-round-of-voting/Default.aspx

    The Chargers, Raiders and Rams have begun meeting individually with the NFL’s six-owner Committee on Los Angeles Opportunities after two relocation proposals failed to get the required 24 votes during a first round of voting Tuesday, Scott Reid of the Orange County Register.

    A proposal for the Rams and Chargers to be approved for relocation to Inglewood received 20 votes, while a proposal for the Chargers and Raiders moving to Carson garnered 12 votes.

    While the teams are meeting with the Los Angeles committee, team officials have been busy holding sidebar discussions with other owners and senior NFL staff.

    ====

    Rams deny Kroenke warned owners not to cross him

    http://www.theredzone.org/BlogDescription/tabid/61/EntryId/54204/Rams-deny-Kroenke-warned-owners-not-to-cross-him/Default.aspx

    Sources say Rams owner Stan Kroenke told the ownership group in so many words they could be guilty of collusion if they choose the Chargers-Raiders project in Carson instead of his plans for a stadium in Inglewood. He essentially warned them not to cross him, Howard Balzer reports for KSDK TV in St. Louis. The Rams denied that Kroenke said that to the owners.

    #37044
    Avatar photoInvaderRam
    Moderator

    wow. that close. now you gotta wonder if some deal is going to be struck or if a vote is made on a ram/charger partnership?

    #37045
    Dak
    Participant

    SK is already preparing a Court case if he doesn’t get what he wants.

    #37047
    Avatar photocanadaram
    Participant

    I hate 4 PM EST games by the way.

    #37136
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    This is the thread that was going up until the final re-vote that decided the issue.

    Anyone can post anything in it…just saying what it has been as a thread up till now.

    So far, responses from after we knew the final vote are in this thread:

    http://theramshuddle.com/topic/board-response-to-the-nfl-vote/

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