What's the toughest throw for a QB to make?

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  • February 12, 2019 at 11:25 pm #98013
    Billy_T
    Participant

    Talking about from the QB’s perspective only. Just his.

    When I was young, I usually played running back and wide-receiver. QB rarely. But I remember which throws came easiest. As an old fogey now, from my observations of NFL and college games, I think it’s still pretty much the same, and it’s really just common sense. Would like to hear what others have to say on this.

    Will start if off with what just strikes me as too obvious:

    The deep pass, straight down the field, where the QB can’t see any left to right or right to left movement of his target or the DB. He just about has to guess the depth and the separation from the DB, simply due to the optics and the lack of clear angles. It becomes almost a matter of faith.

    Anything with at least some right to left or left to right vision involved . . . that instantly makes it easier to complete. Arm strength, or lack thereof, kicks in, obviously. The deep outs, etc. But the QB can at least see separation and “lead” his receiver. Though the sideline presents its own major obstacles.

    But it’s that deep pass, straight down the field, I’m guessing, that most QBs would rather avoid.

    February 13, 2019 at 1:59 pm #98022
    SunTzu_vs_Camus
    Participant

    It’s a hard thing to put into words, Billy…as my answer would be that…”IT DEPENDS”.

    It’s all soooo spatially related. imo

    A Deep Pass or I’m assuming a BOMB/Go! route was be one of the easiest – for me anyway – cuz it’s almost automatic in the timing and loft/arc necessary to drop it over the DB. Also, due to the long time in the air the WR can adjust and compensate for off target throws – kinda like how a PR has time to move and adjust to the ball. In a long pass the WR can do the same. WRs – who are any good- can adjust their speed and box out the defender

      to make it sync up perfectly like the ball was placed in a magic spot

    . Now, there is a hard part to the BOMB throw that was hard and it ties into my explanation below on the DEEP OUT…and that is the angle of the sideline…but I’ll explain that below.

    btw – Practice is where a QB just learns to know his ability & his max controlled distance throw to know when to let it go…while always eying the FS to keep him from closing with an angle that will affect the catch. Practice is where the QB experiments with styles and finds his throwing limits physically speaking.

    Sorry to ramble…back to yer question….
    Initially, my thot would be to agree on the DEEP OUT being the most physically challenging throw due to

      depth & angle

    it entails. The classic DEEP OUT (20 back to 18) is in a no man’s land for the brain…visually/spatially and depth-wise. The sidelines are very hard to see and gauge angle at that distance to keep from throwing/leading the WR out of bounds. Due to the distance of the throw and timing a QB throws well before the WR breaks…a lot before!!
    A QB must estimate the (vanishing point)angle of the sideline based on the positioning of the WR at the estimated top of his route…..and where it is assumed he will make his break to the out.
    When the

      timing

    of this pass play is synced & choreographed right..it is impossible to stop…impossible, I say. lol

    It was my fav throw cuz it was the scariest to make. It was a throw I got very good at in time…but it takes tons and tons of reps with the WRs to get THEIR individual timing down cuz each WR runs it different based on their own body and style…just as every pass is different from each QB..the ball comes off their hands differently. I’m so surprised it’s not used more often but I think that’s due to the difficulty of it.

    btw-
    The Post Corner route is a very hard angle throw also…but referencing the top of this post on the BOMB throw…the WR can adjust to make the QB look waay better than the throw really was…but it’s still a hard throw – 2nd hardest throw after the DEEP OUT. imo

    4 Hard passing types. imo
    1) Deep OUT
    2) Post Corner (close 2nd)
    3) Traffic Throws – with crossing WRS can blur real quik and make it hard to get the depth & lead angle right.
    4) Simple Flair pass is also a hard angle even tho it’s very short…a QB is gauging the loft and lead of his throw against the sidelines.

    Anyway, all these types pass are so nuanced as it almost becomes art…no, it DOES become ART.
    WOW….I’ve been a Starving Artist my whole life and never even knew it!!
    That’s helps with the frustration!! LOL

    "I should have been a pair of ragged claws...
    Scuttling across the floors of silent seas."
    February 13, 2019 at 4:01 pm #98027
    zn
    Moderator

    Thanks for that! Excellent as always. I like that you played in a Coryell system and actually did all that stuff.

    Anyway.

    My guess was going to be the deep out. You know more about it, but what I see in the deep out is that the ball travels a long distance at an angle across the field, and so must be thrown both with accuracy and velocity. That’s my amateur view. The deep out actually travels more yards in space at the angle, than it does up the field. So I don’t know how many yards it would be exactly but if a WR caught a 20 yard deep out, the ball actually would have travelled more than 20 yards.

    Those are my amateur thoughts.

    We have talked about this before with Bulger. Bulger did not have a strong arm (it wasn’t a weak one either) but he had such a nice quick release that he threw a great deep out. If you combine deep digs and deep outs, that’s a good summary of Martz and Bulger and that offense, I think.

    ….

    February 13, 2019 at 8:36 pm #98030
    Billy_T
    Participant

    Thanks, Sun/Camus.

    I second ZN. That was excellent. You basically spelled (it all) out, from the POV of the QB, as opposed to us chair-potatoes.

    ;>)

    I also liked that you said the wideout has a chance to make the QB look a lot better. Great receivers earn their paychecks when they do that. They do the same when they win contested passes, otherwise known as 50/50, etc. etc.

    (I was a lot better at catching passes facing the QB. Not the best in the world at catching bombs over my shoulder, in stride, etc.)

    I think Cooks struggles with the jump balls. IMO, he’s an excellent receiver otherwise, and has speed to burn plus a lot of guts. But he’s just not the guy who’s going to consistently come down with those jump balls. I want the Rams to find one of those . . . You know. Seven feet two inches, size 15 hands, 350 pounds, with a 55 inch vert and 4.1 speed in the forty.

    Shouldn’t be too tough to find, right?

    February 13, 2019 at 10:50 pm #98033
    SunTzu_vs_Camus
    Participant

    (I was a lot better at catching passes facing the QB. Not the best in the world at catching bombs over my shoulder, in stride, etc.) – Billy

    No joke, over the shoulder catches are the HARDEST in football…easiest to throw – but hardest to catch!!! The WR has to have incredible focus running full speed – with the world bouncing around – and focus on the ball as it descends while he adjusts. You are right that a QB will throw to the guy with the surest hands and that’s Kupp and Woods for Goff. imo
    Goff or any QB will miss the guy he “knows” will catch the ball on 3rd down. Kupp and his 4.6 speed?
    Forget it, I’d choose a slow guy with great hands over speed specimen any day of the week…but twice on NFL Sundays!! 😉

    btw, I like Everett as that big tweener TE/WR…he has really strong hands and is one of the best RAC TEs in the NFL. imo
    Everett just hasn’t had that many catches but he does alot with them when he gets them and doesn’t go down easy.

    I’d love a Megatron type WR also…but we have guys that do very well at their niche…and McVay uses them well to suit their skills. In the coming draft there are some really tall -6-3, 230lb types that have great hands…but avg speed.

    "I should have been a pair of ragged claws...
    Scuttling across the floors of silent seas."
    February 13, 2019 at 11:03 pm #98034
    zn
    Moderator
    SunTzu_vs_Camus wrote:

    No joke, over the shoulder catches are the HARDEST in football…easiest to throw – but hardest to catch!!! The WR has to have incredible focus running full speed – with the world bouncing around – and focus on the ball as it descends while he adjusts.

    Torry Holt said himself he could not do those.

    And…here’s my favorite over the shoulder catch in all my time watching NFL games.

    February 14, 2019 at 7:33 am #98041
    SunTzu_vs_Camus
    Participant

    EXACTLY!!!!….a great example.
    Also, in the 1979 Rams vs Steelers SB…the 2nd Stallworth TD was kinda like that although there have been numerous AMAZING over the shoulder catches over the years since. those types of catches are the pinnacle of “catching” prowess. imo

    btw – I’m wondering why there have not been more DEEP OUTS in football anymore…and i’m not sure why other than it’s a very hard throw and it takes a long time to block by the OL…maybe that’s why – the length of time OL has to hold their blocks…and the difficulty in syncing up that difficult QB to WR connection. Also, cuz I DO think it’s the hardest pass and not every QB has the ability to do it consistently. However, again, it’s my contention that it’s nearly IMPOSSIBLE to defend when done well. There are ways to do it off a 5 step drop instead of 7 to beat the first problem of long PassPro…but then it becomes much more timing/anticipatory based…but it CAN be done from a 5 step drop….but that’s even harder than a regular DEEP OUT from 7 Steps.

    justa thot in thinking about all this…I could be very very wrong and I’m not to be trusted cuz I got chemo brain these days….
    BUT…Remember when the back-shoulder pass was NOT a purposeful throw or a play???….coming into existence & named, what? maybe what 20yrs ago??
    I have a thot on the evolution of that:
    I think that the Back-Shoulder came about from failed deep outs or BOMB throws that were thrown behind and to the sideline

      …and the WR just had to adjust. Soon, teams started to realize that the CB was not watching and the WR could make a play off an underthrown or misplaced DEEP OUT pass…and viola…the Back-Shoulder pass was born!!
      —–just spitballin here but in practice when I throwing all those DEEP OUTS to get the timing and distance down with the WR….invariably, a misplaced throw or bad timing on the pass…usually ended up looking/becoming a backshoulder completion now that I think about it!!
      interesting thot…and it’s just an observation based on my own personal experience.
    "I should have been a pair of ragged claws...
    Scuttling across the floors of silent seas."
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