Whats wrong with the offense?

Recent Forum Topics Forums The Rams Huddle Whats wrong with the offense?

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  • #95377
    wv
    Participant

    OK, whats wrong with the Rams offense ?

    1. Gurley is hurt.
    2. They miss Cooper Kupp.
    3. Oline is fading for whatever reason.
    4. Defenses have developed better strategies for stopping the offense.
    5. Goff is pressing big-time because of all of the above.

    Is that about it?

    w
    v

    #95379
    JackPMiller
    Participant

    The OLine is one. They were talking that Fletcher Cox was picking up and throwing John Sullivan to the side. Andrew Whitworth struggles against speed rushers. Roger Saffold is inconsistent, Austin Blythe sux. Havenstein may be our best OLineman.

    Outside of Aaron Donald the rest of our defense has been inconsistent up all year. Cory Littleton, and Samson Ebukam are backups playing starting roles.

    Also, McVay just has not learn how to adapt.

    #95382
    zn
    Moderator

    OK, whats wrong with the Rams offense ?

    1. Gurley is hurt.
    2. They miss Cooper Kupp.
    3. Oline is fading for whatever reason.
    4. Defenses have developed better strategies for stopping the offense.
    5. Goff is pressing big-time because of all of the above.

    Is that about it?

    w
    v

    Also against Chicago, they did not adjust to how defenses are playing them now. Defenses are subtracting the intermediate “chunk” passes they thrived on earlier, and then also both (1) attacking the OL and (2) gameplanning Donald out of the picture which means fewer dramatic defensive plays limiting the score.

    One answer to the defensive strategy of taking away the 11-25 yard chunk plays is to develop a patient short passing game. They WERE doing that against the Eagles but then getting behind meant they had to junk that approach.

    #95383
    Zooey
    Moderator

    Also against Chicago, they did not adjust to how defenses are playing them now. Defenses are subtracting the intermediate “chunk” passes they thrived on earlier, and then also both (1) attacking the OL and (2) gameplanning Donald out of the picture which means fewer dramatic defensive plays limiting the score.

    One answer to the defensive strategy of taking away the 11-25 yard chunk plays is to develop a patient short passing game. They WERE doing that against the Eagles but then getting behind meant they had to junk that approach.

    And when they junked the short passing game in desperation late in the game, they nearly came back.

    • This reply was modified 5 years, 9 months ago by Zooey.
    #95387
    zn
    Moderator

    And when they junked the short passing game in desperation late in the game, they nearly came back.

    True.

    #95395
    wv
    Participant

    I never thought I’d see Goff acting so utterly panicky as he has lately. I mean…wow.

    I am guessing that things went so smoothly this year that when the Oline slipped and the Defenses started playing differently he just…couldnt handle it.

    Is Gurley healthy enough to be a threat?
    Can they coach up Goff?
    Can McVay adjust without Kupp?

    Doubtful but who knows.

    w
    v

    #95396
    wv
    Participant

    I know youve all seen this, but its worth thinkin about. Can Goff ever be patient enough to adjust to defenses taking away his favorite stuff?

    #95398
    zn
    Moderator

    know youve all seen this, but its worth thinkin about. Can Goff ever be patient enough to adjust to defenses taking away his favorite stuff?

    Seen and gotten some good responses to it. The issue is Goff in that vid because the guy making the vid wants the issue to be Goff. That’s his focus. So you end up with the construct of an “impatient Goff.” BUT in fact a lot of that against Chicago was play design. People who watched the 22 say the idea that Goff always had short options built into plays does not hold up. In fact that changes with the Eagles game, where McVay DID build an offense around short ball control passing. This was so visible that in fact it was a running theme in Collinsworth;s commentary. We were remarking in it in the chat room during the game.

    So I think the whole thing that vid tries to come up with about an “impatient Goff” is in his head. That’s not the issue. For one thing, how likely is it that McVay would stand there and watch his qb overlook shorter options on passes pass after pass and say nothing? Much more likely is what the guys who watch the 22 say: that the issue against Chicago was not Goff ignoring safer options, it was the lack of safer options, something that McVay corrects for the Eagles game.

    You might be interested in the discussion that follows that vid, here: http://theramshuddle.com/topic/goff-day-how-the-bears-defense-baited-jared-goff-into-his-worst-game-ever/

    #95404
    InvaderRam
    Moderator

    some of it is scheme i’m sure.

    a lot of it is growing pains. i don’t have the time now, but if you look at qbs in the past, you’ll see some similar growing pains. and not just in terms of raw numbers but relative to other qbs during that time.

    does this mean he will learn from this? not necessarily, but it also means i’m not yet in panic mode.

    #95405
    zn
    Moderator

    You might be interested in the discussion that follows that vid, here: http://theramshuddle.com/topic/goff-day-how-the-bears-defense-baited-jared-goff-into-his-worst-game-ever/

    This is from another board. I make a lot of the same points in more detail:

    I have problems with that vid.

    He puts a lot on Goff that isn’t on Goff. It was play design. He acts like JG had all these shorter options in the Bears game when that’s not the case. The issue against the Bears is twofold. One is pressure. It’s a rare qb, a guy like Wilson, that looks good under that much pressure…and in fact the Rams have made Wilson look bad under pressure (2017). The other is there actually WASN’T a whole lot of short options built into the attack in the Bears game. In fact that changes in the Eagles game.

    Here is Goff in the Eagles game before they got massively behind. I have taken out plays that were negated by penalty, and I include only Goff passes (no Gurley runs):

    quarter time down distance

    1 7:21 3 1 RAM 29 Jared Goff pass complete short right to Todd Gurley for 6 yards (tackle by Avonte Maddox)
    1 6:43 1 20 RAM 25 Jared Goff pass complete short middle to Todd Gurley for 8 yards (tackle by Kamu Grugier-Hill)
    1 6:02 2 12 RAM 33 Jared Goff pass complete short right to Robert Woods for 18 yards (tackle by Malcolm Jenkins)
    1 5:04 2 6 PHI 45 Jared Goff for 7 yards (tackle by Nigel Bradham)
    1 3:56 2 7 PHI 35 Jared Goff pass complete short left to Tyler Higbee for 11 yards (tackle by Rasul Douglas and Cre’von LeBlanc)
    1 3:25 1 10 PHI 24 Jared Goff pass complete short left to Josh Reynolds for 6 yards (tackle by Malcolm Jenkins and Nathan Gerry)
    1 2:38 2 4 PHI 18 Jared Goff pass complete short left to Robert Woods for 4 yards (tackle by Cre’von LeBlanc)
    1 2:01 1 10 PHI 14 Jared Goff pass complete short middle to Todd Gurley for 9 yards (tackle by Malcolm Jenkins)

    2 7:49 3 1 PHI 21 Jared Goff pass complete short left to Brandin Cooks for 7 yards (tackle by Rasul Douglas)
    2 6:10 2 21 PHI 25 Jared Goff pass complete short left to Todd Gurley for 10 yards (tackle by Rasul Douglas)
    2 5:26 3 11 PHI 15 Jared Goff sacked by Fletcher Cox for -8 yards

    That’s 2 key series in the first half.

    On those 2 series Goff is 10 of 10 for 82 yards. It’s basically a shorter ball control passing game…something t hey did NOT use against the Bears.

    Kollerman acts like Goff was ignoring options in the Bears game when for the most part he did not have them. In the Eagles game they deliberately corrected that and he DID have shorter options, since they designed it that way.

    #95415
    Eternal Ramnation
    Participant

    What was right with the offense when it was going? The OL . The OL has played like shit the last 3 games.

    #95419
    wv
    Participant

    Well, if McV went into the Bears game without short-pass options then that was idiotic. It was the Bears. Anyone with a brain would know that the Oline might not hold up, So I’m skeptical that the short-routes were not there in the Bear game. That just wouldnt make any sense to me. That would be somethin Martz might do, but I cant imagine McV being that dum.

    At any rate its all interesting. Trying to figure out what has happened. It ‘looks’ like its a lot of factors: Kupp, injuries, Defenses scheming better, OLine wearing down…

    But the one thing that just ab-so-lutely startles me is the Goff disintegration. I mean he looks like Foles after the Green Bay hit. I just didnt expect it. I dunno if he can come back from this ‘this’ year.

    The Garo Yapremium play is just…shocking. Its like ‘phantom sack’ level shocking. I will never forget it.

    w
    v

    #95421
    zn
    Moderator

    Anyone with a brain would know that the Oline might not hold up, So I’m skeptical that the short-routes were not there in the Bear game.

    Well you have McVay being an idiot either way.

    Either Goff was not hitting those routes and McVay said nothing.

    Or like virtually every other game he has coached for the Rams he did not build them in.

    To me it was just a relatively new and very young offensive coach going up against 2 savvy old veteran D coordinators in Fangio and Schwartz.

    What I saw though against Phil was distinctly different. They relied on those quicker passes/ shorter routes throughout the first half. It was so evident that Collinsworth repeatedly drew attention to it in his commentary. He also (rightly IMO) stressed that it was a new development.

    #95433
    zn
    Moderator

    hammer

    Goff’s struggles are attributable to more pressure and less time in the pocket to make reads. Why less time? Defenses have mostly taken away the mid to deep routes, playing a bend but don’t break defense and the Rams have been unable to score because of turnovers or failed red zone production resulting in fieldgoals. Certainly Goff could improve ball security and make better decision on throws, but his poor performance stems from an offensive line not performing as well after the bye week.

    I don’t think it is entirely attributable to age of the linemen. That could be a factor, but you would think after the bye week they may be somewhat refreshed. I think the offensive line issues began on the first drive against Detroit when Gurley was tacked awkwardly and had to come out. The Rams barely ran after that, when they did it was not as effective as it had been. The jet sweep or even the threat of one was not present and has not been since that game. With little to no running threat, PLAY ACTION IS NOT CAUSING THE DEFENSE TO HESITATE.

    Against the Bears I saw the same thing. It looked like things were turning around early for the run game against the Eagles, when two injuries occurred. The center in an early drive and Gurley at some point in the first half. Again no jet sweeps, little to no Run threat and defense for the third game in a row playing 4 deep.

    A defense which calls for the offense to RUN, be patient and dump if off to a running back out of the back field. All year screens and catches out of the back field by Gurley have provided significant production until the Detroit game. When the Rams pulled the center out after a potential concussion the offense was immediately stagnant and out of sync.

    Under the current McVay offensive scheme, Gurley or some other running back must pick up the slack so the threat of the Run is realized. If the defensive line and linebackers have to respect the threat of the run and can be moved by the jet sweep or threat we will see Goff with more time and we will see the Rams be better able to attack a defense who is playing 4 deep.

    Losing Malcom Brown earlier was huge and the Rams depth has been exposed. I am also convinced that losing Kupp has contributed to Goff’s ineffectiveness, he seemed to use Kupp as a very effective safety net. He was such an intriguing part of the offense.

    If Gurley doesn’t return to full ability, then McVay better change up his offensive scheme.

    #95441
    wv
    Participant

    Interesting that both the Chiefs and Rams are having offense issues now that their RB issues have emerged.

    w

    v

    #95455
    zn
    Moderator

    #95456
    zn
    Moderator

    Another take on one aspect of it.

    Why is Goff struggling? Because (IMO) all qbs go through stretches where they struggle. That includes all the greats (if memory serves). The bad ones are never that good in the first place so it’s hard to say they did really well and then struggled…more often than not they struggle all along. Heck for that matter JG already went though and came out of a slump in 2017 (he had a stretch of 3 games last year–Seattle, Jagz, ARZ–where his avg. qb rating was 70 and he threw just 2 TDs and 3 INTs….his avg. completion percentage in those 3 games was 52.3%).

    You don’t do the good things Goff did this year if you are not a good qb. It’s that simple. And good young qbs have slumps.

    Just to offer a good example, here is Brees in his 4th year, his real take off year. In 2004 he completed 65% of his passes, with 27 TDs, 7 INTs, and an avg. qb rating of 104.8 (which ranked 3rd that year).

    And that year he also had these games:

    SDG NYJ L 28-34 — 42.11%, 146 yds, 1 TD, 2 INT, qb rating of 47.1
    SDG @ DEN L 13-23 — 48.28%, 121 yds, 0 TD, 0 INT, qb rating of 59.7
    SDG DEN W 20-17 — 51.85%, 106 yds, 0 TD, 1 INT, qb rating of 46.2

    So in those games he averaged 48% completions, threw 1 TD and 3 INTs, and his avg. qb rating was 51.0. In 2004 for the season, 48% completions would have ranked 34th (out of 34), and a qb rating of 51.0 would have ranked 34th (out of 34).

    That’s Brees in year 4. Goff is in year 3. A BAD qb does not play the way he did against the Chargers, Vikings, and Chiefs. All 3 are winning teams and 2 have top 6 defenses. BUT a good young qb will . slump some games, as Brees did in his 4th year.

    Unless someone can think of a qb who never went through this? Having bad “off” stretches as a young qb? I can’t think of one but then again I am not a living memory bank.

    You want to know how many “off” games Brady had in his third year? I am counting every game where he has a qb rating below 70 (which is a pretty generous cut-off number). It’s 5. In those 5 games he has 3 TDs and 7 Ints. His avg completion percentage in those 5 games is just under 54.0 % and he has 1 game where it’s in the high 40s.

    Anyway, I think I am right on this, that he will come out of it……….

    #95476
    wv
    Participant

    Well if i had to ‘rank’ the problems, I’d go:

    1 Oline (but what exactly is the problem? Age? Nagging Injuries? Somethin else?)

    2 Gurley being hurt. (and the media almost never talks about this)

    3 Loss of Kupp. I knew at the time this would be big. Cooper is Goff’s security blanket. He just is.

    4 Teams scheming better against the Rams, McVay being young, etc.

    None of this bodes well for the playoffs, unless them injuries are minor ones that might clear up.

    w
    v

    #95480
    zn
    Moderator

    1 Oline (but what exactly is the problem? Age? Nagging Injuries? Somethin else?)

    Speculation time. Just jumpin in with summ thotz. I don’t have the benefit of watchin the 22, but I do happen to have 2 cents, which means I qualify as a guy with some opinions.

    I would say it’s a combo of things. One is age (Sullivan, Whit).

    Another is that they have been scheming around players who are not really standard template starters, like Blythe and Hav. Blythe has physical limitations but he makes up for it, they say, with technique and some wrestler’s skills. He’s a system guard. I would say the same is true of Hav at tackle. These guys are more like Nutten and Gruttadauria and Miller, and obviously not like Pace and Timmerman.

    In fact I think that in a lot of ways, it’s more like the GSOT line than not. (That includes the fact that both OLs had/have an absolutely top notch OL coach.) That is, the GSOT OL was very well suited to execute what they did on offense, but line them up against a top DL that can exploit their limitations and they came up short in a couple of areas.

    The difference is, that OL had Pace and Timmerman. This one has Saffold. On the “could play OL for any team in the league” scale, Saffold really is it.

    Anyway this OL was set up to play outside and inside zone, and if they go against a couple of top DLs that can control that (like Chi and Phil), the run is compromised a bit. They also can’t beat those DLs by just lining up and dominating.

    Pass blocking? They all have limitations if attacked by a good to very good DL. I read where Chicago got pressure on 52% of Rams passes while blitzing only 18% of the time. Well. That’s gonna work against this offense.

    Another part of it, seems to be that McV was slow to build in an offensive attack built around short quick ball control passing. He DID do that against the Eagles, not against the Bears though (leading one guy in a popular vid on the Bears game, which you post here, to exclaim that Goff refused to throw short, not that they didn’t have a short game built in). And in fact against the Eagles that worked. Until they got behind in the third quarter and had to drop it.

    So the other factor in this is that the OL, under seige, had to gut it out in a game where the Rams defense was not getting the kinds of big plays we’re used to seeing from Donald. That’s obviously not on Donald…the Bears and Eagles deliberately set out to control him, and on some of the replays where commentators were showing this, I saw triple team blocking on AD. Sacks subtract points because as it turns out, percentage wise, it is very rare for offenses to convert third downs in a series where the qb gets sacked.

    So cause of that the offense had to play uphill a bit more.

    You know what we were seeing then. It was the 2016 offense. Gurley less effective because he’s dinged a bit, the OL more out of sync than you would like, and the qb under so much pressure it was affecting his game. (My take on 2016 was that something was wrong with Gurley all year, he was not himself.) (In fact McGinnis came right out and said he was playing hurt all year.)

    The differences between the last 2 games and 2016 are that the OL was younger (Hav struggled in 2016) & they had GR instead of AW; they have receivers now; Goff for all his struggles the last 3 games is just not a rookie; and the 2016 offense looked like that against every defense whereas in 2018 it was against 2 TOP defenses. So in fact they had all those disadvantages against the Bears and Eagles and still managed a point differential of 14.5 to 22.5, which is not ideal but is also not 2 blowouts.

    Just a footnote. A minor aside really. Some will say the offensive coaching was massively different between 2016 and 2018, which is mostly true except for this–the offensive coordinator for the Eagles, Mike Groh, was the Rams passing game coordinator in 2016. So people IMO get a tad hyperbolic about how miserable the coaching was in 2016. But on the other side of that coin, while McV is certainly superior to any Rams offensive coach since Martz (and since before Martz going back to Zampese), he’s still young and relatively inexperienced and was going against 3 savvy veteran defensive coordinators in a row (Patricia, Fangio, Schwartz). Those 3 guys are going to have the advantage if McV does not have a full deck of cards, which he didn’t.

    • This reply was modified 5 years, 9 months ago by zn.
    #95483
    Billy_T
    Participant

    Lots of good points in this thread. Taken together, it seems kinda obvious that it’s a lot of things. Injuries, declining o-line play, Goff making bad decisions at key times, some stubbornness when it comes to personnel groupings and playcalls, etc.

    Not sure which matters most, or more, or more often, etc. etc. But it’s pretty safe to say that, at least on offense, if the line isn’t protecting the QB, the offense will struggle.

    Which makes me think of this: Theoretically, at least, making major acquisitions to upgrade talent should — it should — also improve depth. Again, this strikes me as obvious. If you can upgrade a position, you move your former starter to “depth,” so, logically, you’ve just improved it. But I think McVay may have offset that somewhat by — especially along the o-line — keeping fewer guys for that unit that he should have, given such a long season. Same may hold for wideouts. And when two of your upgrades are past their primes, with one pushing 40, this is especially risky.

    Bringing in key guys for upgrades only improves “depth” if you decide to keep adequate numbers there, and work them in to the degree possible. Play them when the score allows this. I don’t think the Rams did, and I think they could have brought in more competition last offseason too. Wideouts and o-line, primarily.

    #95484
    Billy_T
    Participant

    Of course, the really important thing in all of this is correcting the issues.

    As I mentioned before, I think a great way to do this is to change up the personnel groupings. Get away from the three wideouts on nearly every play. Not saying go to “jumbo” sets only. Just saying mix them in with the other stuff. Try to throw off the D. Keep ’em guessing.

    This late in the season, opposing teams have the “book” on the Rams offense, so it really doesn’t surprise me that the same set doesn’t work as well as it did in early games.

    How to fix this? Use other sets. To me, that’s just common sense. Of course, make the changeups fit down and distance, game context, the strengths and weaknesses of the opposing D, etc. But throw curveballs, regardless. IMO, if they don’t, they’re going to have a short run in the playoffs. They simply can’t rely on the players they have now, in the same exact formations, to produce as well as they did in those early games.

    #95497
    wv
    Participant

    Well we know McV is a brilliant coach. And we know Wade has seen it all.

    So it will be interesting to see what adjustments are coming and what can be done at this late point, in the season.

    It certainly is interesting that they picked up the new vet Running back.

    I am not at all certain the Rams can become the Pats as far as developing a short passing game at this late stage of the season. I think its asking a lot of these guys to dink and dunk all the way down the field and through the red zone. Especially without Kupp.

    I guess the biggest disappoint this year is all ten guys on defense not named Aaron Donald.

    w
    v

    #95500
    zn
    Moderator

    I am not at all certain the Rams can become the Pats as far as developing a short passing game at this late stage of the season. I think its asking a lot of these guys to dink and dunk all the way down the field and through the red zone. Especially without Kupp.

    WV.

    They’ve already done it. Eagles game.

    It’s fait accompli.

    Not sure why this is so mysteriously missing in people’s evaluation.

    They did it already and already made it work.

    Even Chris Collinsworth, who is not known for the penetrating subtlty of his insight, kept pointing it out, repetitively…it was one of the dominant points of his entire take on the game.

    It happened right in front of anyone watching the game.

    This is starting to remind me of that routine from Buffy, where there’s a spell that makes it so if anyone figures out Ben and Glory are the same, they instantly forget it.

    #95505
    zn
    Moderator

    Lions defensive game plan could be shutting down Rams

    MAX DEMARA Dec 17, 8:04 AM

    https://247sports.com/nfl/detroit-lions/Article/Lions-defensive-plan-shutting-down-Rams-offense-126468764/

    The Detroit Lions have turned around their defense in a big way to finish the 2018 season and have been putting up good numbers on that side of the ball lately amid their turnaround. And perhaps one of their best performances was against the Rams in the beginning of December. Detroit, in a game few expected them to win, stifled the Rams most of the afternoon and limited the offensive output of one of the best teams in the league. Even though Los Angeles won, the damage had apparently been done.

    As the Rams have struggled in the last few weeks, the residual effects of the Lions game plan keep showing up and frustrating the Rams. They surfaced in Chicago’s big win with Vic Fangio, and Jim Schwartz copied some of the plan to help the Eagles win on the road. Analyst Dan Orlovsky took notice.

    “Seems like the Lions D blueprint playing the Rams 3 weeks ago people paid attention to. Don’t chase the run-don’t sell out to stop the run. You aren’t going to and it opens up the PA gashes. Lions didn’t. Bears didn’t. Doesn’t seem Eagles are either. See how McVay handles,” Orlovsky tweeted.

    On the game, the Lions frustrated Jared Goff and didn’t allow him to get going with deep passes or impact plays. They allowed the Rams to run the ball and sat back in coverage, not giving Goff any open lanes. Matt Patricia masterminded the plan which almost propelled the Lions to a big upset, and arguably would have if their offense was healthy and effective. Detroit’s loss appears to be the league’s gain, though, as other coordinators have ran with the idea and used it to their advantage.

    The Lions have come a long way from allowing 48 points in the season opener to the New York Jets. Damon Harrison has helped stabilize things in a big way up front, while the team has also cultivated a more balanced outlook up front. They haven’t been playing catch up as much on the field, and seem to have a better idea of where they need to be. That’s led them to be able to keep the team in games they should probably not be in thanks to all the problems the team has had offensively.

    Whether they’re coverage sacks or not, the Lions defense deserves credit for finding a way to get to the quarterback. A big complaint for the Lions from fans has been their inability to pressure the pocket in recent years, and they have seemingly turned this around in a major way this season with some long-awaited consistent play. Patricia’s scheme has found creative ways for the team to get after it, and the players are delivering the big plays to help out what had been a major problem. With 37 sacks, they’ve already surpassed 2017’s total and will shatter it.

    Obviously, the Lions have some major building to do along their defensive line and secondary in the coming seasons in the draft and free agency, and one could expect them to target those spots most in the coming year when it comes to upgrades. But even without those future players and their arrivals, the Lions have been pretty good already, which should be downright scary for the opposition. Once the Lions can continue to slow the running game and get solid play on the back end, the whole group will be better.

    They’ve also got a good coach in Patricia, who’s putting together solid game plans even if their effects haven’t paid off in consistent wins all season long yet. His much-copied work against the Rams might only show how that’s the case.

    #95514
    Hram
    Participant

    I think the team has lacked a sense of urgency the past few games and their issues (oline, etc) have more to do with being in the right emotive state mentally than anywhere else.

    Essentially, they need to get their mojo back.

    #95515
    wv
    Participant

    It happened right in front of anyone watching the game.

    This is starting to remind me of that routine from Buffy, where there’s a spell that makes it so if anyone figures out Ben and Glory are the same, they instantly forget it.

    =============

    Well, i just saw the lowlights of the eagles game; Didnt see the whole game — but they did…lose. So I’m not sure that counts as turning dinking and dunking into a winning formula.

    Btw, I suspect there might be a connection between Ben and Glory.

    w
    v

    #95518
    InvaderRam
    Moderator

    Btw, I suspect there might be a connection between Ben and Glory.

    you mean ben is glory and glory is ben?

    #95528
    zn
    Moderator

    Btw, I suspect there might be a connection between Ben and Glory.

    you mean ben is glory and glory is ben?

    Who are Ben and Glory?

    .

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