Monsanto loses jury trial

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  • #89271
    wv
    Participant

    Monsanto loses:https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/jury-orders-monsanto-pay-290m-roundup-trial-n899811

    “…In its decision on Friday, the jury awarded the plaintiff, Dewayne Johnson, nearly $290 million in damages.

    Johnson’s lawsuit against Monsanto was the first case to go to trial in a string of legal complaints alleging the glyphosate-based herbicide Roundup causes non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma…”

    #89286
    nittany ram
    Moderator

    I wonder if Bayer would have purchased Monsanto if they knew they would lose this suit?

    I’ll never shed a tear when a big corporation takes one on the chin, but glyphosate most likely didn’t cause Dewayne Johnson’s non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma. Nearly every credible study has found no link between glyphosate and cancer. The IARC’s classification of glyphosate as a Class 2a carcinogen (meaning it probably causes cancer in humans) was based on cherry-picked data and the exclusion of some more relevant studies. Coffee is also a Class 2a carcinogen, btw.

    Glyphosate isn’t the only chemical in Round-up. It also contains a surfactant that helps the glyphosate penetrate plant tissues more effectively. There aren’t a lot of studies to show if the surfactant is a carcinogen or not. More research is needed here. My guess is, when used correctly, Round-up isn’t carcinogenic. But the dose makes the poison. Any chemical (including water) becomes toxic at too high of a level.

    Of course, the Organic Industry sees this court ruling as a victory. The irony is that glyphosate is one of the least toxic pesticides available. It’s much less toxic than the ‘natural’ pesticides approved for organic farming like copper sulphate, rotenone, azidirachtin, pyrethrin, etc…

    #89291
    wv
    Participant

    I wonder if Bayer would have purchased Monsanto if they knew they would lose this suit?

    I’ll never shed a tear when a big corporation takes one on the chin, but glyphosate most likely didn’t cause Dewayne Johnson’s non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma. Nearly every credible study has found no link between glyphosate and cancer. The IARC’s classification of glyphosate as a Class 2a carcinogen (meaning it probably causes cancer in humans) was based on cherry-picked data and the exclusion of some more relevant studies. Coffee is also a Class 2a carcinogen, btw.

    Glyphosate isn’t the only chemical in Round-up. It also contains a surfactant that helps the glyphosate penetrate plant tissues more effectively. There aren’t a lot of studies to show if the surfactant is a carcinogen or not. More research is needed here. My guess is, when used correctly, Round-up isn’t carcinogenic. But the dose makes the poison. Any chemical (including water) becomes toxic at too high of a level.

    Of course, the Organic Industry sees this court ruling as a victory. The irony is that glyphosate is one of the least toxic pesticides available. It’s much less toxic than the ‘natural’ pesticides approved for organic farming like copper sulphate, rotenone, azidirachtin, pyrethrin, etc…

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    I dunno, Cappy. I’m sure the Monsanto lawyers presented their side of it to the Jury. I’m sure the jury heard a LOT of science.

    w
    v

    #89294
    nittany ram
    Moderator

    I dunno, Cappy. I’m sure the Monsanto lawyers presented their side of it to the Jury. I’m sure the jury heard a LOT of science.

    w
    v

    Yeah, but that jury wasn’t comprised of people who are experts in this particular scientific field. Scientific studies are tricky. It takes a lot of experience to tell the good from the bad. I’m sure they heard a lot of evidence from both sides, presented as if the validity of the research was equivalent. But it wasn’t. So in the end it was based on layers from opposing sides quoting cherry-picked studies and ignoring any evidence that contradicted their positions and at the end of the day the jury picked the side they liked the best.

    #89296
    wv
    Participant

    I dunno, Cappy. I’m sure the Monsanto lawyers presented their side of it to the Jury. I’m sure the jury heard a LOT of science.

    w
    v

    Yeah, but that jury wasn’t comprised of people who are experts in this particular scientific field. Scientific studies are tricky. It takes a lot of experience to tell the good from the bad. I’m sure they heard a lot of evidence from both sides, presented as if the validity of the research was equivalent. But it wasn’t. So in the end it was based on layers from opposing sides quoting cherry-picked studies and ignoring any evidence that contradicted their positions and at the end of the day the jury picked the side they liked the best.

    —————–

    Well I’m just sayin if the plaintiff’s lawyers were cherry-picking evidence, Monsanto’s lawyers could have pointed that out with ‘their’ experts. etc.

    w
    v

    #89308
    nittany ram
    Moderator

    Well I’m just sayin if the plaintiff’s lawyers were cherry-picking evidence, Monsanto’s lawyers could have pointed that out with ‘their’ experts. etc.

    w
    v

    I’m sure they did. And I’m sure the plaintiff’s lawyers made the same claim about the evidence presented by Monsanto’s lawyers. In the end it didn’t come down to which side had the best evidence; it came down to which side could convince the jury they had the best evidence – something the members of the jury really aren’t trained to know.

    Plus I’m sure their decision wasn’t completely based on evidence. The jury had to decide between the poor unfortunate individual who is dying of cancer and a giant corporation that once made agent orange. I might have decided the same way.

    I don’t care that Monsanto has to fork out $289 million. Fuck’em. I do care that this ruling advances the false narrative that glyphosate is extraordinarily bad. It’s not perfect, but if it goes away, the stuff that will replace it will be much worse.

    #89451
    nittany ram
    Moderator

    The Science Behind the Roundup Lawsuit

    On August 10th a California jury awarded Dewayne Johnson $289 million dollars in damages against the company Monsanto (now owned by Bayer). The decision was based on the claim that Johnson (a greenskeeper) developed non-Hodgkins lymphoma because of his exposure to Roundup, an herbicide that contains the active ingredient glyphosate that was developed by Monsanto.

    The decision will almost certainly be appealed, and is being widely criticized because it is not in line with the science. There is a long history of juries awarded damages based on flimsy science. Dow Corning famously filed for bankruptcy following class action law suits for alleged damages due to silicone breast implants, while the science was still preliminary. The claim was that the breast implants were causing auto-immune disease, which the manufacturer denied. Juries found the women sympathetic, however, and companies rarely appear sympathetic in such trials. But in 2000 a meta-analysis found:

    On the basis of our meta-analyses, there was no evidence of an association between breast implants in general, or silicone-gel-filled breast implants specifically, and any of the individual connective-tissue diseases, all definite connective-tissue diseases combined, or other autoimmune or rheumatic conditions. From a public health perspective, breast implants appear to have a minimal effect on the number of women in whom connective-tissue diseases develop, and the elimination of implants would not be likely to reduce the incidence of connective-tissue diseases.

    It seems we have a similar situation with Roundup and cancer, except the meta-analysis was published before the huge jury award, rather than after. The wrinkle here is that this and other lawsuits were likely sparked in part by the WHO decision in 2015 to classify glyphosate as a “probable carcinogen”. That decision was an outlier, however, and was immediately criticized. Several independent reviews of the WHO decision concluded that the decision was in error, and that the totality of evidence does not support the conclusion that there is any link between glyphosate and non-Hodgkins lymphoma specifically, or any cancer. I review the evidence and the expert panel reviews here.

    An interesting 2017 review explored why the European Union (which concluded glyphosate was safe) came to a different conclusion than the WHO:

    Use of different data sets, particularly on long-term toxicity/carcinogenicity in rodents, could partially explain the divergent views; but methodological differences in the evaluation of the available evidence have been identified. The EU assessment did not identify a carcinogenicity hazard, revised the toxicological profile proposing new toxicological reference values, and conducted a risk assessment for some representatives uses.

    Essentially they used different data and methods. There is also this:

    In a Special Report published on June 14, 2017, investigators at Reuters uncovered the shocking fact that an American scientist, Dr. Aaron Blair, the Chairman of the International Agency for Research on Cancer’s (IARC) Monograph 112 on glyphosate, suppressed critically important science.

    The hidden science in question is recent data from the Agricultural Health Study (AHS), the largest and most comprehensive study ever conducted on pesticide exposure in humans. Evidence shows that Dr. Blair withheld updated data from the study which evaluates the pesticide exposure of more than 50,000 farmers and their families. The updated data reinforces the study’s original conclusion in 2005 that there is no evidence linking glyphosate exposure to cancer incidence.

    So the best data we have shows no link between glyphosate and cancer, but that data was ignored by Dr. Blair. Further, Blair was involved with this study, and so definitely knew this data existed. Also, under oath Dr. Blair admitted: “[the] data would have altered IARC’s analysis.”

    We are now, in part, seeing the fallout from this bad decision by the IARC.

    According to reports of the case, Johnson’s attorney had to overcome the actual science showing glyphosate is safe and not associated with cancer. He did this by claiming that Roundup as a whole may cause cancer, even though glyphosate alone does not. While not impossible, this is an implausible claim that is still lacking in evidence. This was an act of simply moving the goalpost to avoid the more definitive scientific evidence. The ploy worked.

    Johnson is also claiming that he has two accidental exposed to Roundup, so he was exposed to far more than would be the case with normal use. However, the time between exposure and his development of NHL was probably far too short for a causal relationship – a fact apparently not considered compelling by the jury.

    Why should we all care about this? I of course have sympathy for Mr. Johnson, just as I have sympathy for all of those women who developed autoimmune diseases after getting silicone breast implants. I also think it is extremely important to hold corporations accountable if they cause harm due to their products. But justice in these cases will only prevail if the science prevails.

    Further, glyphosate is demonstrably far less toxic than the alternative herbicides. If glyphosate is banned, or rendered unusable because of unfair lawsuits and unscientific jury verdicts, an important agricultural option will be eliminate – not because of science or because it’s the right thing, but out of fear and ignorance.

    Reasonable people can argue and disagree about the optimal role of glyphosate and other herbicides in agriculture, and that is not the point of this article. But agricultural decisions should be based on a consensus view of the science, not the emotions of 12 jurors who clearly wanted to punish Monsanto regardless of what the science says.

    This and other decisions also point to a flaw in our legal system. This is a much longer discussion outside the scope of this article, but the rules on the admissibility and role of scientific evidence in the courtroom still leave much to be desired in my opinion. Ultimately this case turned on an evaluation of a scientific claim, and I don’t see why such scientific questions should be decided by non-expert jurors.

    Posted in: Epidemiology, Genetically modified organisms (GMOs), Legal, Politics and Regulation Tagged in: Dewayne Johnson, genetically modified organisms, glyphosate, gmo, Roundup
    Posted by Steven Novella
    Founder and currently Executive Editor of Science-Based Medicine Steven Novella, MD is an academic clinical neurologist at the Yale University School of Medicine. He is also the president and co-founder of the New England Skeptical Society, the host and producer of the popular weekly science podcast, The Skeptics’ Guide to the Universe, and the author of the NeuroLogicaBlog, a daily blog that covers news and issues in neuroscience, but also general science, scientific skepticism, philosophy of science, critical thinking, and the intersection of science with the media and society. Dr. Novella also contributes every Sunday to The Rogues Gallery, the official blog of the SGU.

    #89452
    nittany ram
    Moderator

    A list and description of the more toxic herbicides that glyphosate replaced and would come back if glyphosate went away…

    Link:http://www.crediblehulk.org/index.php/2015/06/02/about-those-more-caustic-herbicides-that-glyphosate-helped-replace-by-credible-hulk/

    #89454
    wv
    Participant

    A list and description of the more toxic herbicides that glyphosate replaced and would come back if glyphosate went away…

    Link:http://www.crediblehulk.org/index.php/2015/06/02/about-those-more-caustic-herbicides-that-glyphosate-helped-replace-by-credible-hulk/

    ======

    What i hear u saying is, Hillary is glyphosate, and Trump is Fluazifop.

    w
    v

    #89457
    Zooey
    Moderator

    The Republicans could end all this today if they would just pass a law against weeds, but they won’t because they are in the pocket of the herbicide industry. If we had Universal Crops Care for everybody, we wouldn’t have this problem.

    #89458
    wv
    Participant

    The Republicans could end all this today if they would just pass a law against weeds, but they won’t because they are in the pocket of the herbicide industry. If we had Universal Crops Care for everybody, we wouldn’t have this problem.

    ——————

    How bad can the republicans be?

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