George Carlin's Daughter

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  • #77053
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    K.Carlin on humans and cynicism :

    #77116
    PA Ram
    Participant

    She certainly seems much more positive than her dad. But he may have been more of a realist.

    George spoke a lot of truth.

    I like the point about crowd mentality. I find that very interesting. I have a book on my Kindle right now called, “The Crowd: A Study of the Popular Mind” by Gustav Le Bon. I’ve been back and forth with it but it’s fantastic. It really gets into crowd psychology and how that can be manipulated by powerful leaders. It was written in 1895 but it applies to today very well and modern “internet crowds”, IMO. While Le Bon sounds sexist and even probably racist to a degree—the main message concerning crowd mentality seems to have a lot of merit behind it.

    I especially liked his view of a religious mentality and crowds. Here’s a snippet from Wikipedia:

    On religion, ideology, and fanaticism:
    A person is not religious solely when he worships a divinity, but when he puts all the resources of his mind, the complete submission of his will, and the whole-souled ardour of fanaticism at the service of a cause or an individual who becomes the goal and guide of his thoughts and actions. Intolerance and fanaticism are the necessary accompaniments of the religious sentiment. They are inevitably displayed by those who believe themselves in the possession of the secret of earthly or eternal happiness. These two characteristics are to be found in all men grouped together when they are inspired by a conviction of any kind. The Jacobins of the Reign of Terror were at bottom as religious as the Catholics of the Inquisition, and their cruel ardour proceeded from the same source.

    Anyway–I find it interesting.

    r

    I find this quote to fit with the memes of today:

    “Crowds being only capable of thinking in images are only to be impressed by images. It is only images that terrify or attract them and become motives of action.”

    The nazis very much used this kind of psychology as well.

    Anyway–I found a site that actually has a pdf of the book at the bottom of the page if you’re interested. Just scroll down.

    http://greshams-law.com/2013/01/25/5-lessons-from-the-crowd-a-study-of-the-popular-mind-by-gustave-le-bon/

    Here’s the Wiki link for it:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Crowd:_A_Study_of_the_Popular_Mind

    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. " Philip K. Dick

    #77118
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    I like the point about crowd mentality. I find that very interesting. I have a book on my Kindle right now called, “The Crowd: A Study of the Popular Mind” by Gustav Le Bon. I’ve been back and forth with it but it’s fantastic.

    PA I don’t usually jump in this way about someone’s reading, but, Le Bon established a certain way of looking at crowds that is now considered controversial.

    Here’s an example of that.

    Donald Trump and the Myth of Mobocracy
    How the dubious ideas of a 19th-century Frenchman reverberate in 2016

    ROBERT ZARETSKY

    https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2016/07/trump-le-bon-mob/493118/

    Terrorist bombs shattering lives and buildings. Waves of immigrants stirring popular fears and anxieties. Corruption and scandal staining the reputation of politicians. Commerce and industry convulsing amid dizzying and divisive change. Ambitious men with no political experience casting themselves as providential leaders. The sense—elusive but real—that the people are morphing into the crowd, democracy mutating into mobocracy.

    These trends would seem to characterize the current political season. Particularly striking have been the images of crowds at the Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump’s campaign stops and at last week’s Republican National Convention in Cleveland, where he nurtured and indulged a nightmare vision of an America overrun by immigrants and terrorized by the murderous Other. Time and again, a strong leader who praises acts of violence and scorns the rule of law has galvanized the crowds. “I am your voice,” Trump announced in Cleveland—a voice, it seems, that can meld the many into one, and people into a mob.

    These same trends, however, also lead back to late 19th-century France. In fact, the “crowd”—the concept, more so than the reality—was born in fin-de-siècle Paris. Fittingly, 2016 marks the 175th anniversary of the birth of Gustave Le Bon, the French polymath who popularized this durable and dire idea. A prolific author, Le Bon is now known for authoring The Psychology of Crowds, a best-selling book whose quiet influence stretches to the present day. It is a work that, partly because it got so much wrong about the nature of crowds, reveals much about the age of Le Donald, no less than the age of Le Bon. In both cases, it appears, the fascination and fear of crowds obscures their reality and reach.

    Published in 1895, The Psychology of Crowds captured the temper of the times. It was, Le Bon declared, “the age of the crowd.” With the growing density of urban life, the establishment of universal male suffrage, and the rise of the labor movement, pundits, politicians, academics, and dilettantes all turned their attention to “la foule,” or the crowd. Trained as a doctor, Le Bon identified what he claimed were the sources of this phenomenon: the millions of Frenchmen and -women who, caught up and spat out by the great churn of industrialization and urbanization, had been torn from their rural hierarchies, traditions, and values. Drawn to cities, they became the stuff of the “crowd”: a mass allegedly shaped by simple ideas, generally ones that conjured the specter of global conspiracies (usually involving Jews), the sway of an economic elite (France’s infamous “200 families” were the parallel to America’s own “1 percent”), and the threat of unchecked immigration (Italians and Poles, rather than Algerians and Tunisians), all indulged by the popular media. These ideas, he drily observed, circulate inside crowds just as microbes do inside a human body, infecting all within their reach. Against this new strain of microbes, the tools of reason and analysis offer only the flimsiest of defenses, Le Bon wrote.

    The consequences of this contagion, as Le Bon described it, are catastrophic—something like a French remake of Max Brooks’s World War Z. If not quite the walking dead, the infected individuals in Le Bon’s schema are reduced to beasts. “By the mere fact that he forms part of an organized crowd,” Le Bon warned, “a man descends several rungs in the ladder of civilization. Isolated, he may be a cultivated individual; in a crowd, he is a barbarian—that is, a creature acting by instinct.” Unlike the freelancing zombies in World War Z, though, these particular creatures require a leader, a charismatic figure who, adept at modern public relations, seeks primitive ends: to win power for the sake of power—or, more prosaically, to maintain an elite of winners over the mass of losers.

    However, as Le Bon observed, this goal is lost on his followers, who are consumed by a near-religious fervor. As with the fiercest religious sect, so too with the modern crowd: Its commonly held convictions “assume the characteristics of blind submission, fierce intolerance, and the need of violent propaganda,” Le Bon wrote. The crowd’s leader is “acclaimed as a veritable god,” holding sway over its imagination by “devising new formulas as devoid as possible of precise meaning,” thus taking on whatever meaning the follower invents. At the same time, this leader destroys his rivals with claims devoid of substance: “By dint of affirmation, repetition, and contagion” the crowd’s leader affirms that his opponent is “an arrant scoundrel, and that it is a matter of common knowledge that he has been guilty of several crimes.” Almost as an afterthought, Le Bon concluded: “It is, of course, useless to trouble about any semblance of proof.”

    To his bourgeois readership, Le Bon seemed to offer a diagnosis, dispassionate and distanced, of the troubled state of France’s social and political health. This was a nation that had recently been wracked by a series of crises, beginning with the collapse of the major banks and stock market in 1882, stretching through the rise of nationalist, anti-Semitic, and anti-republican movements like the Boulanger Affair of the late 1880s. This was quickly followed by political conflagrations like the “Panama scandals” of 1892 and a rash of anarchist bombings and assassinations through the early 1890s, all of which were eclipsed by the Dreyfus Affair. Whether it was the tens of thousands who flocked to Georges Boulanger, a charismatic general who seemed on the verge of overthrowing the Republic, or the thousands howling for the death of “the Jew Dreyfus” during his public court martial, the age certainly appeared, as Le Bon declared, to belong to the crowd.

    For those who have followed Le Donald’s rise to power, the crowd again seems to be rearing its massive head. It is the crowd, it appears, that swells Trump’s campaign events where the candidate praises the torture of terrorism suspects and justifies the violence of aides and followers. It is the crowd, one might believe, that shouts as he brands his political opponents as criminals, and promises to deport entire ethnic groups and deny entry to religious groups because of the alleged danger they present to the republic. It is the crowd, so it seems, that encourages Chris Christie’s call and answer to lock up Hillary Clinton and cheers Ben Carson’s suggestion that Clinton is a Lucifer’s apprentice. It is the crowd—this late-19th-century creature theorized by Le Bon, then ridden by the likes of Mussolini and Hitler (both of whom read the Frenchman’s work)—that Trump has apparently resurrected.

    But here’s the rub: “le crowd” is, in part, a mythical creature. As contemporary sociologists and psychologists like Stephen Reicher, a professor of psychology at the University of St. Andrews, argue, the crowd is less a feature of the modern political landscape than a creature of Le Bon’s private nightscape. Rather than surrendering their identity or losing themselves in the crowd, as Le Bon argued, individuals who join the group instead embrace a collective identity, one usually hedged by limits and informed by rules. In his work on riots in 18th-century England, the historian E.P. Thompson revealed how these so-called mobs were, in fact, governed by what he called a “moral economy.” Similarly, in his landmark work on crowds in the French Revolution, the historian George Rudé showed how the “mob” that took the Bastille was not bestial and base, but instead shaped by the actions of literate artisans.

    There is no social alchemy that creates a single or collective “mind,” but instead an aggregate of individuals. Nor is it, as Reicher argues, that crowds are entities that exist outside of a specific social context. They are, instead, responses to specific events and shaped (and limited) by the various concerns of those who form a crowd. There is no social alchemy that creates a single or collective “mind,” but instead an aggregate of individuals who, to widely varying degrees, follow or ignore the leaders.

    Consider the RNC. Even when its crowd reached its zenith of “crowdiness” during Chris Christie’s effort to cast them as the jury in his mock trial of Clinton, there were undoubtedly significant numbers of delegates who were taking selfies, texting friends, pricing souvenirs, chatting with friends, staring off into space, or perhaps even recoiling at the events unfolding before them. At their darkest, crowds can evoke the depiction of German rallies in Nazi propaganda films like Triumph of the Will. But there are also gorgeous crowds like the one depicted in Paolo Veronese’s painting “Wedding at Cana”—a crowd of individuals that, taken up by their personal concerns and activities, are mostly and gloriously indifferent to Christ’s turning of water into wine.

    Despite the correctives offered by social scientists, however, Le Bon’s vision remains very powerful. In part, this is because at times it does reveal telling traits to both crowds and those who seek to lead them. Yet, Le Bon’s vision also persists because it reveals truths about our own fears and resistances. Those of us who identify with America’s humane and liberal traditions are rightly horrified by Trump’s racist, violent worldview. But, ironically, Democrats risk committing the very same error that Trump has made his stock in trade: seeing his supporters in terms of abstractions, not particulars; groups, not individuals. When they see Trump’s supporters as a crowd, Trump’s opponents relieve themselves of the task of seeing them as men and women driven by an array of motives. The challenge is to defeat not just Trump, but the all-too-human tendency to turn the world into us versus them.

    #77120
    Avatar photowv
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    r

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Crowd:_A_Study_of_the_Popular_Mind

    ===================

    Its interesting how the publishers chose that photo to be the cover of the book. A lone cop holding back the ugly-crowd.

    They could just as easily have shown a photo of a bunch of cops beating up a lone citizen (Rodney King, etc)

    Its a minor thing to bring up, but its the first thing that popped into my mind when i saw the book cover.

    w
    v

    #77124
    PA Ram
    Participant

    PA I don’t usually jump in this way about someone’s reading, but, Le Bon established a certain way of looking at crowds that is now considered controversial.

    No–jump in. I have no problem with that. I welcome it.

    I have no deep knowledge of the subject to be honest–and the book was 99 cents on Kindle. I did read somewhere that Goebbels may have been influenced by the book. And some of the things certainly ring true to me. I especially find a religious sort of mindset to crowds or crowd movements. That’s just how I see it.

    Does an individual give up his own identity when he becomes part of a crowd? Does a “crowd” once formed, have a mind of its own?

    Maybe not entirely. But I can’t help believe there is something to that idea.

    Certainly you don’t suddenly become racist if you aren’t racist just because others in the crowd are racist. But at the same time–in the mix of interests in a crowd, that racisim could be overlooked in the interests of accomplishing something an individual considers “greater” in some way. So a Trump supporter who is very anti-trade for example or who lives in fear of terrorists may accept the wall against immigrants because they feel this will offer protection or that the benefits of wiping out bad trade deals is the greater concern than the effects of racism. And that in the end it may be in fact, helpful to minorities. In other words–they mold their beliefs in a way that fits into the crowd and satisfies themselves that they haven’t sacrificed any personal beliefs. A crowd is complex–yes.

    But history clearly shows us that charismatic leaders can lead crowds even against their own self interests.

    If there is no crowd mentality that sort of takes over–an inner pressure from being and identifying as part of this crowd, then how does this all work? How do these individuals form into these sort of movements?

    Richard Dawkins I believe talked about viruses of the mind and how they can”infect” others. Ideas can take on the roll of a virus in a way. Is this different from crowd mentality? Is it some sort of infection?

    I doubt Lebon is right about all of this. I’m sure he isn’t. But he does make some interesting points, for sure. And I think it’s possible he does get some things right–as applicable in his time as they are today. I think that’s interesting. But I’m far from a historian on psychology. In fact, I’ve probably read very little about psychology over the years. Which is odd because I do find the topic often fascinating.

    But thanks for posting that. I did read it and he makes some good points too. Can there be such a thing as “crpwd” mentality? I’d assume that could be controversial and there would be psychologists on both sides of that issue.

    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. " Philip K. Dick

    #77127
    PA Ram
    Participant

    Its interesting how the publishers chose that photo to be the cover of the book. A lone cop holding back the ugly-crowd.

    They could just as easily have shown a photo of a bunch of cops beating up a lone citizen (Rodney King, etc)

    Its a minor thing to bring up, but its the first thing that popped into my mind when i saw the book cover.

    That book has had a million covers since the time it was published. That’s just one and I’m not really sure it is that important to the content of the book except in a metaphorical kind of way. That one was just easy to copy and paste from the images available. I didn’t give it any thought, really. I’m not sure what publisher did it or who they were selling to at the time. Maybe they just saw a crowd and said: “Use that one.” But–yes–I do get a sense that Lebon was a bit racist. That’s hardly his focus though in this book.

    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. " Philip K. Dick

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