Recent Forum Topics › Forums › The Public House › william blum on russia, korea, socialism…
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August 27, 2017 at 8:52 am #73349wvParticipant
W.Blum is now on dialysis.
Interesting comments on the Korean war. I bolded it below.
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He’s back!! The Return of William Blum!The Anti-Empire Report #150
by William Blum / August 26th, 2017
“see link…..At least I still have my eyesight and my hearing. My mind is okay. I have all my limbs and am not paralyzed. And I’m not in pain. Much to be thankful for.
It’s also very nice to have gone past the hangups my condition thrust upon me and to be back writing my report for the first time in five months. During the recent American presidential campaign I wrote that if I were forced to vote and also forced to choose between Clinton and Trump I’d vote for the Donald. (As it turned out I voted for the Green Party candidate, Jill Stein.) I stated two reasons why I’d choose Trump over Clinton: presumably, a lesser chance of nuclear war with Russia and a lesser chance of the American government closing down the Russian TV station, Russia Today (RT), broadcasting in the US. There was at the time, and now again, growing Congressional pressure to do just that and I’m very reliant on the station. Because of such matters I was willing to overlook Trump’s many and obvious character defects, which I summed up with the endearing word of my people back in Brooklyn –- “shmuck”. But by now the man’s shmuckiness has been writ so large that little hope for him can be maintained.
What is keeping Donald Trump from drowning in the very cesspool of his own shmuckiness is a gentleman named Kim Jong-un. Who would have believed that a single historical period could produce two such giant shmucks, men who tower over their pathetic contemporaries? There’s only one explanation for this remarkable phenomenon. Of course. It’s Russia. Moscow is using the two men to make America look foolish. And Russia, it may soon be revealed, gave North Korea its nuclear weapons. Did you think that such an impoverished, downtrodden society could produce such scientific marvels on its own?
Is there any act too dastardly for Vladimir Putin?
We don’t know yet whether Trump’s son, daughter or son-in-law made any deals with Kim Jong-un. Stay tuned to Fox News and CNN.
Those stations, amongst others, put out a lot of fake news, but when it comes to news of North Korea nothing compares to the fake news of 1950. Did you know there’s no convincing evidence that North Korea did what they’re most famous for –- the June 25, 1950 invasion of South Korea, which led to the everlasting division of the Korean peninsula into two countries? And there were no United Nations forces that observed this invasion, as we’ve been taught. In any event, the two sides had been clashing across the dividing line for several years. What happened on that fateful day in June could thus be regarded as no more than the escalation of an ongoing civil war. Read my chapter on Korea in Killing Hope: U.S. Military and CIA Interventions Since World War II for the full details of these and other myths.
The response to terrorism
I still get emails criticizing me for the stand I took against Islamic terrorists earlier this year. Almost every one feels obliged to remind me that the terrorists are acting in revenge for decades of US/Western bombing of Muslim populations and assorted other atrocities. And I then have to inform each one of them that they’ve chosen the wrong person for such a lecture. I, it happens, wrote the fucking book on the subject!
In the first edition of my book Rogue State: A Guide to the World’s Only Superpower, published in 2001, before September 11, the first chapter was “Why do terrorists keep picking on The United States?” It includes a long list of hostile US military and political actions against the Islamic world during the previous 20 years.
So I can well see why radical Muslims would harbor a deep-seated desire for revenge against The United States and its allies who often contributed to the hostile actions. My problem is that the Islamic terrorist actions are seldom aimed at those responsible for this awful history –- the executive and military branches of the Western nations, but are more and more targeted against innocent civilians, which at times includes other Muslims, probably even, on occasion, some who sympathize with the radical Islamic cause. These random terrorist acts are thus not defendable or understandable from any revenge point of view. What did the poor people of Barcelona have to do with Western imperialism?
Civilians are, of course, much easier to target, but that’s clearly no excuse. As I’ve pointed out in the past, we should consider this: From the 1950s to the 1980s the United States carried out all kinds of very harmful policies against Latin America, including numerous bombings, without the natives ever resorting to the uncivilized, barbaric kind of retaliation as employed by ISIS. Latin American leftists generally took their revenge out upon concrete representatives of the American empire: diplomatic, military and corporate targets – not markets, theatres, nightclubs, hospitals, schools, restaurants or churches.
The terrorists’ choice of targets is bad enough, but their methods are even worse. Who could have imagined 20 years ago that an organization would exist in this world that would widely publicize detailed instructions on how to choose a truck to drive down a busy thoroughfare and directly into crowds of people? What species of human being is this?
What is needed is a worldwide media campaign to make fun of the very idea that such men, along with suicide bombers, will be rewarded by Allah in an afterlife; even the idea of an afterlife can, of course, be derided; yes, even the idea of Allah, by that or any other name, can be derided; at least the idea of such a cruel God. Appealing to jihadists on simply moral grounds would be even more useless than appealing to Pentagon officials or Donald Trump on moral grounds. The jihadists have to be deeply ridiculed; the small amount of human empathy and decency still remaining in their heart of hearts has to be reached through embarrassing them before their friends and family. Femmes fatales can be used against young Islamic men, most of whom, I’d venture to say, have sizable sexual hangups. Bombing them only increases their numbers.
Some thoughts on the question that will not go away: Capitalism vs. socialism
The whole art of Conservative politics in the 20th century is being deployed to enable wealth to persuade poverty to use its political freedom to keep wealth in power.
–– Aneurin Bevan (1897-1960), Labour Party (UK) minister
The fact that Donald J. Trump is a champion –- indeed, a model, or as he might say, a huge model –- of capitalism should be enough to make people turn away from the system, but the debate between capitalism and socialism continues without pause in the Trump era as it has since the 19th century. The wealth gap, affordable housing, free education, public transportation, a sustainable environment, and health care are some of the perennial points of argument we’re all familiar with.
So many empty houses … so many homeless people –- Is this the way a market economy is supposed to work?
Twice in recent times the federal government in Washington has undertaken major studies of many thousands of federal jobs to determine whether they could be done more efficiently by private contractors. On one occasion the federal employees won more than 80% of the time; on the other occasion 91%. Both studies took place under the George W. Bush administration, which was hoping for different results. The American people have to be reminded of what they once knew but seem to have forgotten: that they don’t want BIG government, or SMALL government; they don’t want MORE government, or LESS government; they want government ON THEIR SIDE.
As to corporations, we have to ask: Do the members of a family relate to each other on the basis of self-interest and greed?
Speaking in very broad terms … slavery gave way to feudalism … feudalism gave way to capitalism … capitalism is not a timelessly valid institution but was created to satisfy certain needs of the time … capitalism has outlived its usefulness and must now give way to socialism … the ultimate incompatibility between capitalist profit motive and human environmental survival demands nothing less.
The system corrupts every important aspect of our lives, including the one which takes up the most of our time -– our work, even for corporation executives, who demand huge salaries and benefits to justify their working at jobs that otherwise are not particularly satisfying. Several years ago, the Financial Times of London reported on Wall Street’s opposition to salary limits:
Senior bankers were quick to warn the plans would cause a brain drain from the profession as top executives seek more rewarding jobs out of the public eye. Unlike other careers where job satisfaction and other considerations play a part, finance tends to attract people whose main motivation is money. … ‘The cap is a lousy idea,’ complained one top Wall Street executive. ‘If there is no monetary upside, who would want to do these jobs?’
As for those below the executive class … When they work, it’s too often just any job they can find, rather than one designed to realize innermost spiritual or artistic needs. Their innermost needs are rent, food, clothes, and electricity.
For those concerned about the extent of freedom under socialism the jury is still out because the United States and other capitalist powers have subverted, destabilized, invaded, and/or overthrown every halfway serious attempt at socialism in the world. Not one socialist-oriented government, from Cuba and Vietnam in the 1960s, to Nicaragua and Chile in the 1970s, to Bulgaria and Yugoslavia in the 1990s, to Haiti and Venezuela in the 2000s has been allowed to rise or fall based on its own merits or lack of same, or allowed to relax its guard against the ever-threatening imperialists.
The demise of the Soviet Union (even with all its shortcomings) has turned out to be the greatest setback to the fight against the capitalist behemoth, and we have not yet recovered.
How could the current distribution of property and wealth reasonably be expected to emerge from any sort of truly democratic process? And if this is the way regulated capitalism works, what would life under unregulated capitalism be like? We’ve long known the answer to that question. Theodore Roosevelt (president of the United States 1901-09) said in a speech in 1912: “The limitation of governmental powers, of governmental action, means the enslavement of the people by the great corporations who can only be held in check through the extension of governmental power.”
And what do the corporate elite want? In a word: “everything” … from our schools to our social security, from our health care to outer space, from our media to our sports.
“We are all ready to be savage in some cause. The difference between a good man and a bad one is the choice of the cause.” – William James (1842-1910)A few years ago, when George W. Bush came out as a painter, he said that he had told his art teacher that “there’s a Rembrandt trapped inside this body”. Ah, so Georgie is more than just a painter. He’s an artiste. And we all know that artistes are very special people. They’re never to be confused with mass murderers, war criminals, merciless torturers or inveterate liars. Neither are they ever to be accused of dullness of wit or incoherence of thought or speech.
Artistes are not the only special people. Devout people are also special: Josef Stalin studied for the priesthood. Osama bin Laden prayed five times a day.
And animal lovers: Herman Goering, while his Luftwaffe rained death upon Europe, kept a sign in his office that read: “He who tortures animals wounds the feelings of the German people.”
Adolf Hitler was also an animal lover and had long periods of being a vegetarian and anti-smoking.
Charles Manson was a staunch anti-vivisectionist.And cultured people: This fact Elie Wiesel called the greatest discovery of the war: that Adolf Eichmann was cultured, read deeply, played the violin.
Mussolini also played the violin.
Some Nazi concentration camp commanders listened to Mozart to drown out the cries of the inmates.
Former Bosnian Serb politician Radovan Karadzic, convicted by the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia for war crimes, genocide, and crimes against humanity, was a psychiatrist, specializing in depression; a practitioner of alternative medicine; published a book of poetry and books for children.
Members of ISIS and Al Qaeda and other suicide bombers are genuinely and sincerely convinced that they are doing the right thing, for which they will be honored and rewarded in an afterlife. That doesn’t make them less evil; in fact, it makes them more terrifying, since they force us to face the scary reality of a world in which sincerity and morality do not necessarily have anything to do with each other.
Dick Gregory, 1932-2017
Mayor Daley and other government officials during the riots of the ’60s showed their preference for property over humanity by ordering the police to shoot all looters to kill. They never said shoot murderers to kill or shoot dope pushers to kill.
When the white Christian missionaries went to Africa, the white folks had the bibles and the natives had the land. When the missionaries pulled out, they had the land and the natives had the bibles.
The way Americans seem to think today, about the only way to end hunger in America would be for Secretary of Defense Melvin Laird to go on national TV and say we are falling behind the Russians in feeding folks.
What we’re doing in Vietnam is using the black man to kill the yellow man so the white man can keep the land he took from the red man.
William Blum is the author of: Killing Hope: US Military and CIA Interventions Since World War 2, Rogue State: A Guide to the World’s Only Superpower, West-Bloc Dissident: A Cold War Memoir, Freeing the World to Death: Essays on the American Empire. He can be reached at: bblum6@aol.com. Read other articles by William, or visit William’s website.
This article was posted on Saturday, August 26th, 2017 at 3:03pm and is filed under Capitalism, Crimes against Humanity, Culture, Donald Trump, George W. Bush, Health/Medical, Kim Jong-un, Korea, Media, Militarism, North Korea, Opinion, Socialism, Terrorism (state and retail), United States, Vladimir Putin, War Crimes.
August 27, 2017 at 9:09 am #73352znModeratorthere’s no convincing evidence that North Korea did what they’re most famous for –- the June 25, 1950 invasion of South Korea, which led to the everlasting division of the Korean peninsula into two countries? And there were no United Nations forces that observed this invasion, as we’ve been taught. In any event, the two sides had been clashing across the dividing line for several years.
We not only do have info on that, we actually have info on the Russian and Chinese responses to them PLANNING to do it.
So I have to say he’s just wrong on this one.
August 27, 2017 at 11:14 am #73360Billy_TParticipantThanks, WV.
Good article, and Dick Gregory had a major talent for political aphorisms.
On Korea. We have no objective evidence that pins the “fault” of the war on North Korea alone. None. We have propaganda. Americans have been lied to about that war for decades, and its costs. Western historians and various political hacks never talk about the fact that we backed a brutal, fascist dictator in the South, who engaged in massacres before and during the war. And how many historians speak of the 2-4 million dead Korean civilians? How many speak of the fact that both nations were engaged in a brutal struggle for a united Korea, which never would have been necessary in the first place if America and the allies hadn’t split the country in two?
This is good, too:
How could the current distribution of property and wealth reasonably be expected to emerge from any sort of truly democratic process? And if this is the way regulated capitalism works, what would life under unregulated capitalism be like?
We know the answers. While the system of capitalism itself can’t possibly survive without a ton of “regulation” — standardized currencies, trade agreements, legal systems, contract protections, transaction protections, police, EMT, wars to keep the shipping lanes open, wars to smash open previously closed markets, etc. etc — prior to the Keynesian era, it was “unregulated” where fat cats wanted it to be unregulated. As in, they wanted taxpayers to cover the costs to maintain the system and its infrastructure . . . but they didn’t want government restricting what they could do to their workers, consumers, supply chains or the environment. They wanted to be free to screw over workers, supply chains, consumers and trash the environment, while the taxpayer paid MOST of their business costs.
FDR altered that dynamic here, but he kept in place the mass subsidies for business. Its foundations. This “consensus” remained in place roughly through Nixon, with steps forward and backward along the way. That huge change was allowed primarily because of the Depression, WWII and an actual left scaring the shit out of the powers that be.
Another key reason why they didn’t fight back with much gusto? They were able to maintain their capitalist Dickensian hell-holes overseas, and grow those, enough to offset a bit more humane treatment of workers, consumers and the environment here.
But from the 1970s on, first accelerating with Reagan, capitalism has been able to win the trifecta: Dickensian hell-holes overseas; massive deregulation, tax cuts and privatization here; and the near total acquiescence of the populace.
August 27, 2017 at 11:20 am #73362znModeratorOn Korea. We have no objective evidence that pins the “fault” of the war on North Korea alone. None.
I have to differ with you on that. Yes we do. And a lot of it too. This has grown exponentially since former Soviet archives have been opened to scholars.
The following article needs to be read carefully, in detail:
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http://china.usc.edu/shen-mao-stalin-and-korean-war-trilateral-communist-relations-1950s-2012
Shen, Mao, Stalin And The Korean War: Trilateral Communist Relations In The 1950s, 2012
Zhihua Shen’s book was reviewed by Kathryn Weathersby for the H-Diplo discussion list in April 2013. It is reproduced here under Creative Commons license.Review of Zhihua Shen. Mao, Stalin and the Korean War: Trilateral Communist Relations in the 1950s.
Reviewed by Kathryn Weathersby (Johns Hopkins University)
The Korean War in the Context of Sino-Soviet Relations
The publication of Shen Zhihua’s Mao, Stalin and the Korean War marks a significant advance in English-language literature on the Korean \War. A Russia specialist, Shen has long been China’s leading historian of the Korean War, tirelessly pioneering research into Chinese archival documents and making the abundant declassified Russian documents available in Chinese translation. The original 2003 version of this book was a sensation in China as the first non-propagandistic, scholarly account of this pivotal event in the history of the People’s Republic of China (PRC). Former State Department officer Neil Silver has done a great service to English-speaking readers by painstakingly translating and adapting this important work.
Shen investigates two central questions about the war: why Stalin decided to support a North Korean attack on South Korea in 1950 and why the Chinese leadership decided to enter the war in October 1950. Unlike most English-language accounts of the war, which examine its outbreak in terms of the Soviet/American conflict, Shen places Stalin’s decisions regarding Korea in the context of his rapidly changing relations with the Chinese Communist leadership. Drawing on both Chinese and Russian sources, Shen charts Stalin’s ambivalent approach to the Chinese party from 1945 to the end of 1949. He argues that the Soviet leader was determined to maintain the territorial gains in the Far East which he had secured through the Yalta system, which were contingent on his conclusion of a treaty with the Nationalist government. He therefore supported his Chinese comrades only sporadically. For the same reason, throughout this period he maintained a defensive position in regard to a divided Korea. The decision to establish an alliance with the PRC, made in early January 1950, fundamentally changed the equation. In negotiating the terms of the alliance treaty, the Chinese leadership held firm to their demand that the Soviet Union relinquish control of its important assets in Manchuria, the Russian-built Changchun railroad and the ports of Lushun and Dalian at its terminus that provided Moscow its only ice-free access to the Pacific. To compensate for the loss of these strategically essential holdings, Stalin backed Kim Il Sung’s assault on South Korea, since control of the entire peninsula by the much more tractable North Koreans would assure Moscow access to the ports of Pusan and Inchon.
Shen’s analysis of the impact of the Sino-Soviet alliance on Soviet policy toward Korea enriches our understanding of the reasons Stalin took the risky step of invading the Republic of Korea. However, Shen surprisingly omits discussion of NSC-48, the American strategic strategy for East Asia adopted in late December 1949 in response to the establishment of the People’s Republic of China. In this new policy, the United States prioritized its goals in the region given the limited military resources it retained after postwar demobilization. Thus, it committed itself to the defense of Japan, the Philippines, and the small islands to the east that had been taken from Japan at the end of the war. Territories to the west, including Korea and Taiwan, lay outside the new defense perimeter.
I have argued that Stalin learned immediately of the substance of NSC-48, most likely from Donald McLean, his highly placed British spy in Washington, and that knowledge of this policy led Stalin to conclude that the United States would not intervene to protect South Korea. A record of Stalin’s conversations with Kim Il Sung in April 1950 quoted by Russian scholars Evgenii Bazhanov and Natalia Bazhanova, but not included in Shen’s account, reveals that the Soviet leader explained to his Korean protege that it was now possible to assist him in his military campaign against the South because of the victory of the Chinese Communists and the disinclination of the Americans to intervene in Korea. Nonetheless, Stalin cautioned that they must proceed carefully because the danger of American intervention remained. He thus informed the North Korean leader that if the Korean People’s Army needed reinforcements, he would have to turn to China; Soviet troops will not be sent to Korea.[1] Shen’s analysis broadens our understanding of the impact of the establishment of the PRC on Stalin’s policy toward Korea, but it does not fully explain the decision for war. However much Stalin may have desired new ports on the Pacific, he would not have authorized the attack on South Korea unless he calculated that it would not lead to conflict with the United States.
Shen’s careful examination of his second question, which is based on newly available Chinese sources as well as the Russian documents released in the 1990s, provides a much fuller picture of Beijing’s decision to intervene than scholars have previously been able to construct. Departing from the interpretation of the Chinese-American historian Chen Jian, who argues that Mao’s decision to intervene was primarily driven by a desire to maintain revolutionary momentum within the PRC, Shen concludes that security concerns were paramount.[2]
Since China had barely begun to build an air force, it needed Soviet air cover to protect both its troops entering Korea and its rear areas in Manchuria from devastating American air attacks. Shen documents in detail Beijing’s intense negotiations with Stalin over this issue. In the end, fearing that Soviet air involvement in Korea would lead to all-out war with the United States, the Soviet leader stalled for time, claiming that it would take two to two-and-a-half months for any of the numerous Soviet air assets deployed in the Far East to transfer to Manchuria. Since this timetable would be too late to prevent a North Korean defeat, the Chinese leadership agreed with Stalin’s instructions to Kim Il Sung to evacuate his remaining forces to Manchuria and the Soviet Far East.
At this point, however, Mao Zedong feared that a North Korean defeat would transfer the war to northeast China. Although the Sino/Soviet alliance would force the Soviet Union to support China in this war, the outcome would be a loss of northeast China either to Moscow or the Americans. Shen notes that after Stalin sent the Red Army into Manchuria in 1945 to defeat Japanese troops, he was able to force Chiang Kai-shek to sign a treaty that harmed China’s interests. Moreover, the PRC had secured the return of the Changchun Railway, Lushun, and Dalian only through very tough negotiations, like “taking meat out of a tiger’s mouth” (p. 176). Thus, to forestall loss of sovereignty to either great power, Mao decided to send troops to Korea even without Soviet air cover.
In a final twist, once Chinese forces successfully engaged the far better equipped American troops on October 25,1950, Stalin at last decided that he could trust his Chinese allies. As is well known, the Soviet leader had long doubted that Mao was a real Communist and feared that he would follow the path of the independent Yugoslav leader Marshall Tito. But just one week after the Chinese “Volunteers” proved their mettle against the Americans, the Soviet air force entered the war, albeit only in the rear area. As Shen documents, both Mao Zedong and Zhou Enlai attributed Stalin’s changed view of the Chinese Communist Party to China’s entry into the Korean War.
As the newly harmonious allies saved North Korea from extinction, they also began a period of unprecedented cooperation. The Chinese understood that Soviet air units must limit their zone of operation to rear areas in order to avoid escalating the war. Soviet planes thus could not provide cover for Chinese ground troops, as Beijing had initially requested, but Mao did not ask for such assistance another time. Shen concludes that while the allies disagreed on various tactical issues, for the remainder of the war Stalin and Mao “were able to exchange opinions candidly, fostering the resolution of issues between them” (p. 182). Shen emphasizes that the Soviet Union met nearly all of China’s requests for weapons and supplies, materiel which it could not obtain anywhere else. Moscow sent torpedo boats, floating mines, armored ships, small patrol boats, mine-sweeping equipment, and coastal artillery, in the process creating the PRC’s navy. The Soviet Union also provided air combat advisers to train Chinese pilots, as well as donating its new jet-powered fighter, the MiG-15. The month before armistice negotiations began in June 1951, Mao requested that the Soviet Union supply sixty divisions of ground forces, an amount that exceeded Moscow’s immediate capacities. In the end, the Soviet Union agreed to supply sixteen divisions during 1951 and the remaining forty-four by 1954. By the end of the war, fifty-six divisions had been re-equipped with Soviet arms. Moscow also provided anti-aircraft artillery for 101 battalions as well as artillery for two rocket divisions, fourteen howitzer divisions, two anti-tank divisions, four searchlight regiments, one radar regiment, and eight independent radar battalions. Twenty-eight engineering regiments were supplied with Soviet construction equipment, as well as ten railroad divisions.
The cooperation from Moscow that flowed from China’s performance in the Korean War extended to economic development as well. Shen writes that the volume of Sino-Soviet trade increased nine-fold in the first year of the war, from $26,300,000 in 1949 to $241,900,000 in 1950 (p. 191). The Soviet Union sold to China, at discounted prices, equipment for mining, transportation, energy production, metal rolling, and milling, as well as oil and finished steel. Moscow also sent a large number of technicians to China and welcomed large numbers of Chinese as students in Soviet institutions. This close cooperation ended abruptly with the Sino-Soviet split in 1960, but as Shen emphasizes, while it lasted it “played a major role in China’s economic revival” (p.191).
Neil Silver’s highly readable translation of Shen Zhihua’s book includes a useful introductory essay by Yang Kuisong of Beijing University, who takes issue with some of Shen’s conclusions regarding Stalin’s motives for starting the war. With regard to China’s decision to intervene, however, Yang concludes that Shen’s account is “convincing, logical, dramatic, and on target” (p. 16). Indeed, this path-breaking book is both fascinating and essential reading for all scholars interested in the recent history of Northeast Asia.
Notes
[1]. Kathryn Weathersby, “Should We Fear This? Stalin and the Danger of War with America,” Working Paper No. 39, Cold War International History Project (Washington DC: Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars, 2002).
[2]. Chen Jian, China’s Road to the Korean War: the Making of the Sino-American Confrontation (New York: Columbia University Press, 1994).
August 27, 2017 at 11:24 am #73363Billy_TParticipantTo make a long story short regarding democracy and the distribution, allocation of wealth, income, natural resources, etc. etc. We’d never, ever, ever vote for the way things are now. We’d never, ever vote for the way things have EVER been under the capitalist system. At no point in time, even at its best from 1947-1973, did it manage to allocate those things within the remotest whisper of fairness and adequacy. And our one and only Middle Class boom period — Europe’s was roughly at the same time — did not include most minorities or most women. And, as mentioned, the developing world was screwed over the entire time.
A real democracy would never allow any of the historical economic modes since we left communal arrangements (depending upon where and which groups) centuries and centuries ago. Including our current system. To me, anyone who thinks capitalism is an improvement along those lines just isn’t seeing it for what it is, and all too many, especially right of center, confuse external checks and balances on its power as stemming from the capitalist system itself.
IMO, the only way to accurately look at capitalism is to study it as if those democratic checks and balances didn’t exist. The next logical step to take from that point is to replace our system with one that has democracy built in from Day One . . . and doesn’t need external offsets to any significant degree.
- This reply was modified 7 years, 3 months ago by Billy_T.
August 27, 2017 at 11:48 am #73368Billy_TParticipantZN,
How is any of that objective evidence, when it doesn’t talk at all about South Korea and our own intervention? No mention of the brutal fascist dictator, or his plan to launch an attack against the North?
It strikes me as incredibly one-sided.
This article attempts a far more balanced look:
http://apjjf.org/2011/9/5/Mark-Caprio/3482/article.html
A key section:
“On February 8, 1949, the South Korean president met with Ambassador John Muccio and Secretary of the Army Kenneth C. Royall in Seoul. Here the Korean president listed the following as justifications for initiating a war with the North: the South Korean military could easily be increased by 100,000 if it drew from the 150,000 to 200,000 Koreans who had recently fought with the Japanese or the Nationalist Chinese. Moreover, the morale of the South Korean military was greater than that of the North Koreans. If war broke out he expected mass defections from the enemy. Finally, the United Nations’ recognition of South Korea legitimized its rule over the entire peninsula (as stipulated in its constitution). Thus, he concluded, there was “nothing [to be] gained by waiting.”
And another section from this article from antiwar.com
We were fighting on behalf of Syngman Rhee, the US-educated-and-sponsored dictator of South Korea, whose vibrancy was demonstrated by the large-scale slaughter of his leftist political opponents. For 22 years, Rhee’s word was law, and many thousands of his political opponents were murdered: tens of thousands were jailed or driven into exile. Whatever measure of liberality has reigned on the Korean peninsula was in spite of Washington’s efforts and ongoing military presence. When the country finally rebelled against Rhee, and threw him out in the so-called April Revolution of 1960, he was ferried to safety in a CIA helicopter as crowds converged on the presidential palace.
and
As to who did in reality fire that shot, Bruce Cumings, head of the history department at the University of Chicago, gave us the definitive answer in his two-volume The Origins of the Korean War, and The Korean War: A History: the Korean war started during the American occupation of the South, and it was Rhee, with help from his American sponsors, who initiated a series of attacks that well preceded the North Korean offensive of 1950. From 1945-1948, American forces aided Rhee in a killing spree that claimed tens of thousands of victims: the counterinsurgency campaign took a high toll in Kwangju, and on the island of Cheju-do – where as many as 60,000 people were murdered by Rhee’s US-backed forces.
Rhee’s army and national police were drawn from the ranks of those who had collaborated with the Japanese occupation during World War II, and this was the biggest factor that made civil war inevitable. That the US backed these quislings guaranteed widespread support for the Communist forces led by Kim IL Sung, and provoked the rebellion in the South that was the prelude to open North-South hostilities. Rhee, for his part, was eager to draw in the United States, and the North Koreans, for their part, were just as eager to invoke the principle of “proletarian internationalism” to draw in the Chinese and the Russians.
Having backed the Maoists during World War II, in cooperation with the Soviet Union, the US had already “lost” China, and Truman was determined not to “lose” Korea, too. In spite of the fact that he had ample warning of the North Korean offensive, the President used this “surprise attack” to justify sending American troops to Korea to keep Rhee in power, and in doing so neglected to go to Congress for approval – or even give them advance notice.
August 27, 2017 at 11:54 am #73369Billy_TParticipantTo me, there is no evidence, and no logic, behind the “North Korea started the war without provocation” theory. Too much history, too many competing interests, too many powers maneuvering for control on both sides for that. I don’t find any convincing arguments that it was just one side or the other.
I think it was a bloody, near genocidal war that never had to be, and America and South Korea had their role in making it happen, escalating it, making it far more bloody than it would have been otherwise.
We also have to step back and ask ourselves, “Would China or Russia have chosen to support the North if we had not chosen to support the South?” With few exceptions, when it comes to these regional wars, it takes at least two to tango. Usually a lot more than two.
August 27, 2017 at 12:39 pm #73374znModeratorTo me, there is no evidence, and no logic, behind the “North Korea started the war without provocation” theory.
And I disagree. I don’t think the word “provocation” is relevant. Because of previous conflicts, NK believed they would be welcomed in the south by a kind of southern 5th column that was already sympathetic to them. (They were horribly mistaken about that.) The point was unification, though in their terms.
Those were the plans Stalin considered and approved. He also did so at least in part because he believed the USA had drawn back from SK and basically was not going to act in response to an invasion.
We could go on for hours, but I believe the scholarship I have seen. We may have to just agree to disagree on this one.
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August 27, 2017 at 1:05 pm #73377Billy_TParticipantTo me, there is no evidence, and no logic, behind the “North Korea started the war without provocation” theory.
And I disagree. I don’t think the word “provocation” is relevant. Because of previous conflicts, NK believed they would be welcomed in the south by a kind of southern 5th column that was already sympathetic to them. (They were horribly mistaken about that.) The point was unification, though in their terms.
Those were the plans Stalin considered and approved. He also did so at least in part because he believed the USA had drawn back from SK and basically was not going to act in response to an invasion.
We could go on for hours, but I believe the scholarship I have seen. We may have to just agree to disagree on this one.
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Do you acknowledge that Syngman Rhee, the South Korean dictator, committed pre-war and war-time atrocities, focusing on the slaughter of leftists, and that we know he wanted to invade the North in 1949? Would you not also agree that the North had reasons for defending itself and protecting Korean leftists?
The article you cite doesn’t say a thing about the well-known actions of a brutal fascist thug whom we backed, or that the Korean people themselves kicked out of office, finally, in 1960.
I know you haven’t fallen for it, but the level of acceptance of the “official story” in America is tragic, IMO. The ease with which so many accept this story of the evil North launching an unprovoked attack on the completely innocent South has its parallels with our own Lost Cause true believers. These things, as you know, are always far more complex than any manichean approach would have us believe. And I think it deserves a much closer and more objective look.
But, as you say, we could go on for hours. So that “agree to disagree” thing might be best.
August 27, 2017 at 1:14 pm #73378Billy_TParticipantAgain, I don’t support the current government of NK, in any way, shape of form, and since roughly 1987, the South has been head and shoulders better. But prior to that, it (SK) was mostly autocratic, and often severely so, and mostly under brutal military rule.
But in 1950, one would be hard-pressed to make the case that the South was superior in the way it treated its citizenry.
Time to head out and about.
August 27, 2017 at 1:15 pm #73379znModeratorTo me, there is no evidence, and no logic, behind the “North Korea started the war without provocation” theory.
And I disagree. I don’t think the word “provocation” is relevant. Because of previous conflicts, NK believed they would be welcomed in the south by a kind of southern 5th column that was already sympathetic to them. (They were horribly mistaken about that.) The point was unification, though in their terms.
Those were the plans Stalin considered and approved. He also did so at least in part because he believed the USA had drawn back from SK and basically was not going to act in response to an invasion.
We could go on for hours, but I believe the scholarship I have seen. We may have to just agree to disagree on this one.
….
Do you acknowledge that Syngman Rhee, the South Korean dictator, committed pre-war and war-time atrocities, focusing on the slaughter of leftists, and that we know he wanted to invade the North in 1949? Would you not also agree that the North had reasons for defending itself and protecting Korean leftists?
The article you cite doesn’t say a thing about the well-known actions of a brutal fascist thug whom we backed, or that the Korean people themselves kicked out of office, finally, in 1960.
I know you haven’t fallen for it, but the level of acceptance of the “official story” in America is tragic, IMO. The ease with which so many accept this story of the evil North launching an unprovoked attack on the completely innocent South has its parallels with our own Lost Cause true believers. These things, as you know, are always far more complex than any manichean approach would have us believe. And I think it deserves a much closer and more objective look.
But, as you say, we could go on for hours. So that “agree to disagree” thing might be best.
Yeah. We’ve had this discussion before. Rhee came up before, and I responded before. Etc. So I just don’t have that much energy for this one, though you raise some interesting points. I will just say that Blum’s comment is open to question, especially with new archival material on Stalin’s role. That’s all I had energy for today—a quick drive by reminder that there’s a lot of info on this (including Stalin’s role).
Beyond that, yeah, we overlap in some ways and not in others. Another time, then.
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August 27, 2017 at 7:34 pm #73391wvParticipantWell, i know nothing about the Korean War, and I dont have time or energy to research it and even if i did, i doubt i would come to any clear conclusions — which is my continuing meta-point. I mean the Korean War is supposed to be one of those wars thats understood (at least according to the MSM) — and yet here we are debating about the causes.
Zn posts something by a chinese scholar translated by a State Department guy. The fact that a US State Department guy translated it, immediately triggered alarms and wariness in my brain. I didnt ‘dismiss’ it, but immediately i was wary of it — why? Cause the American powers-that-be lie constantly. BT posts other articles and I have no idea how trustworthy ‘they’ are. So, once again, I’m left in this postmodern “I dunno” state.
I’m in that state more and more these days. And i see no way out of it.
Thats just me. Other folks are living out other realities 🙂
w
vAugust 27, 2017 at 10:35 pm #73396znModeratorZn posts something by a chinese scholar translated by a State Department guy. The fact that a US State Department guy translated it, immediately triggered alarms and wariness in my brain. I didnt ‘dismiss’ it, but immediately i was wary of it — why?
That Chinese scholar, who is still alive, is not the only scholar who had access to those records.
And if a translator lies, that goes to editors and publishers too, and the scholar in question has the power to declare the work alters her original. It is very likely that the writer of the review I posted and the Chinese writer of the book know each other.
You can’t get out of things that easy. That’s a respected book, and as I said it is not the only work of scholarship out there that went into the old Soviet archives. In other discussions I have already posted other people citing the same material.
It’s too easy to say everyone who worked for the State Department is part of a unified general conspiracy and is capable of getting away with something like that, when something like that is so easily exposed. One email to the publisher from the author.
August 28, 2017 at 7:17 am #73410wvParticipantZn posts something by a chinese scholar translated by a State Department guy. The fact that a US State Department guy translated it, immediately triggered alarms and wariness in my brain. I didnt ‘dismiss’ it, but immediately i was wary of it — why?
That Chinese scholar, who is still alive, is not the only scholar who had access to those records.
And if a translator lies, that goes to editors and publishers too, and the scholar in question has the power to declare the work alters her original. It is very likely that the writer of the review I posted and the Chinese writer of the book know each other.
You can’t get out of things that easy. That’s a respected book, and as I said it is not the only work of scholarship out there that went into the old Soviet archives. In other discussions I have already posted other people citing the same material.
It’s too easy to say everyone who worked for the State Department is part of a unified general conspiracy and is capable of getting away with something like that, when something like that is so easily exposed. One email to the publisher from the author.
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Well i knew you were going to say that. I get where you are coming from.
I did not say “everyone who works for the State Dept is part of a unified conspiracy” — But i dont trust the State Dept. And I’m wary of any information they approve of. Again, i dont ‘dismiss’ it — but I’m wary of it. Thats just me. The info could very well be true and accurate.
My meta-point isnt really about the particular book, or the State Dept. My point is, in a Culture-of-Lies, Psyops, Propaganda, CIA-influenced-Publishers, Corporate-media, etc — its hard to know what to believe.
I’m not trying to ‘persuade’ anyone, about anything. Just sharing my own perspective. I dont have a clue, about the Korean thing.
w
v- This reply was modified 7 years, 3 months ago by wv.
August 28, 2017 at 11:46 am #73415znModeratorWell i knew you were going to say that. I get where you are coming from.
One of my main things is, this all came up before. People forget details, that’s fine. But one thing you can count on is that people here will never just hang their hat on one source. The stuff I was saying in this thread came up weeks before, with different sources saying the same thing.
Case in point:
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Two Koreas emerged after Soviet-American negotiations failed to agree on a plan to end the division. Kim Il Sung in the north and Syngman Rhee in the south both were determined to reunite Korea, instigating major military clashes at the parallel in the summer of 1949. Moscow and Washington opposed their clients’ invasion plans until April 1950 when Kim persuaded Soviet Premier Joseph Stalin that with mass support in South Korea, he would achieve a quick victory…. Release of Chinese and Soviet sources after 1989 established that Stalin and Chinese leader Mao Zedong approved the North Korean invasion… Late in January, he discussed with Kim Il Sung in Moscow plans for an invasion, but the Soviet dictator still withheld final consent. However, he did approve a major expansion of the DPRK’s military capabilities. At another Moscow meeting in late April, Kim Il Sung persuaded Stalin, who feared U.S. intervention, that a military victory would be quick and easy because of southern guerilla support and an anticipated popular uprising against Rhee’s regime. The Soviet leader authorized the attack, but on the condition that the People’s Republic of China (PRC) also agreed. In May, Kim Il Sung went to Beijing and obtained Chinese leader Mao Zedong’s reluctant approval, who had no choice but to support Stalin’s decision and Communist “liberation” of Korea…. On June 21, word that the ROK had learned of the impending attack caused Stalin to approve Kim’s proposal to launch the massive, tank-led assault
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With the fall of the Soviet Union in 1991, the Russian government began releasing documents confirming Stalin’s direct involvement in planning the North Korean invasion. In June 1994, Russian President Boris Yeltsin presented to the ROK government a collection of additional Soviet documents related to the Korean War. The next year, the Russian government allowed the Cold War International History Project (CWIHP) at the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars and Columbia University’s Korea Research Center to obtain copies of approximately twelve hundred pages of high-level documents on the war, which was twice as large as the Yeltsin gift. The CWIHP has printed English translations of the most important of these documents in its Bulletin. These primary sources are essential for understanding the Korean War.
This was all posted before.
Blum’s comment above is dated and sheds no new light, along with being wrong.
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August 28, 2017 at 3:55 pm #73421wvParticipantThis was all posted before.
Blum’s comment above is dated and sheds no new light, along with being wrong.
…
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Well even if all that were true (and again, unlike you, i dont know how true any of that is), it doesnt really resolve the question of “who started the Korean War?”
I mean, if all i knew was that John punched Sam first. That would not tell me who was more at fault or who really ’caused’ the fight. I mean, maybe Sam did all kinds of things to cause John to throw the first punch….blah blah blah.
Basically I’m saying War is complicated, and Information on war is difficult to trust. For me.
Let a thousand flowers blum.
w
vAugust 28, 2017 at 5:20 pm #73422znModeratorit doesnt really resolve the question of “who started the Korean War?”
There was fighting before, and atrocities, and no heroes on either side before the “official” war began. In THAT sense who started it is simple–everyone.
But the full-fledged invasion with intent to re-unify the whole peninsula through force of arms? That was the North, with a direct go-ahead from Stalin. The north mistakenly believed they would be greeted by a popular uprising.
August 29, 2017 at 7:33 am #73430wvParticipantit doesnt really resolve the question of “who started the Korean War?”
There was fighting before, and atrocities, and no heroes on either side before the “official” war began. In THAT sense who started it is simple–everyone.
But the full-fledged invasion with intent to re-unify the whole peninsula through force of arms? That was the North, with a direct go-ahead from Stalin. The north mistakenly believed they would be greeted by a popular uprising.
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Well, I’m talking about the first sense above, not the actual invasion.
w
vAugust 29, 2017 at 7:56 am #73431znModeratorWell, I’m talking about the first sense above, not the actual invasion.
It was 2 sets of belligerents going at each other. Like many events in the cold war, you won’t find any good guys.
Kim Il Sung in the north and Syngman Rhee in the south both were determined to reunite Korea, instigating major military clashes at the parallel in the summer of 1949. Moscow and Washington opposed their clients’ invasion plans
Either way, Blum is wrong that there is no definitive proof the North instigated the larger war by invading the south with larger forces. They not only did, we have records of Sung persuading Stalin to let him do it (it couldn;t be done without Soviet support and supplies).
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