Recent Forum Topics › Forums › The Public House › Sy Hersh — DNC wasnt hacked, Seth Rich sold info to wiki
- This topic has 39 replies, 5 voices, and was last updated 7 years, 4 months ago by wv.
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August 4, 2017 at 12:20 pm #71832wvParticipant
Start at about the 6:30 mark. Sy Hersh sez there was no hack. Seth Rich gave DNC info to Wikileaks. No Russians involved.
August 4, 2017 at 12:22 pm #71833znModeratorYeah he’s losing credibility on this one.
I don’t know why. I don’t know why this story of all stories, he’s off track.
August 4, 2017 at 12:25 pm #71834wvParticipantYeah, i have the opposite view, but we know we disagree on this one.
Why do you think he’s wrong? He seems awfully sure that he’s right.
w
v
August 4, 2017 at 1:09 pm #71835wvParticipantPart two of the Sy Hersh vid. This one is on Syria.
So we have long excursions by Hersh on The DNC-Wiki-leaker, The real story of the killing of Bin Ladin, and the Assad-Syria gas story.
Correct me if I’m wrong, zn, but i believe you think Hersh is totally wrong on the Syria story and the Wiki-leak story, but probly right on the Bin Ladin story. Yes? No?
I think Hersh is right on all three stories, but I also know that its not like this stuff is math, where 2 plus 2 equals 4 and everything is proven and obvious.
I mainly posted all this cause i wanted Mack’s take on it. If he has a view on any of this.
w
v
August 4, 2017 at 1:18 pm #71836wvParticipantPS — that last Hersh Vid. Part 2 its called. The one on Syria. Go to about the 13 minute mark, and listen for five mins or so. Its about what the CIA did with Syria’s old chemical-gas stuff. I dont think anyone but Hersh has talked about this. It was dumped into the ocean off the coast of Italy. Just dumped. In the water.
I know, what a shock that the CIA/Pentagon/Corporotacracy would do something like that.
w
vAugust 4, 2017 at 1:44 pm #71837znModeratorJust the amount of info on the other side.
He has lost his touch the last couple of times out. He always thinks he’s right. And, he isn’t. He wasn’t always right back when I used to admire him either.
August 4, 2017 at 2:30 pm #71838wvParticipantJust the amount of info on the other side.
He has lost his touch the last couple of times out. He always thinks he’s right. And, he isn’t. He wasn’t always right back when I used to admire him either.
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Ok, fair enough. My own view is suggested by Hersh at about 23 minute mark of the last vid: “Its a bankrupt system”
w
vAugust 4, 2017 at 4:06 pm #71841Billy_TParticipantThe Seth Rich murder story is classic “fake news” and GOP oppo research.
http://money.cnn.com/2017/08/01/media/rod-wheeler-seth-rich-fox-news-lawsuit/index.html
Excerpt:
The White House worked with Fox News and a wealthy Republican donor to concoct a story about the murder of Democratic National Committee staffer Seth Rich, according to an explosive lawsuit filed Tuesday.
The story, the lawsuit said, was part of an attempt to discredit the US intelligence community’s determination that Russia hacked the Democratic National Committee and obtained a trove of emails released by Wikileaks.
For months, right-wing conspiracy theorists had floated unproven theories that Rich was the person who provided Wikileaks with the DNC emails, and suggested his death was retribution for his supposed leak. No real evidence was ever provided to support such claims.
The theory, however, resurfaced in May when Fox News published a story that quoted Rod Wheeler, a Fox News contributor and former homicide detective hired on the Rich family’s behalf by wealthy Republican businessman Ed Butowsky to investigate Rich’s death. According to the story, Wheeler said there was in fact evidence showing Rich had been in contact with Wikileaks. The story quickly fell apart when Wheeler contradicted aspects of it in an interview with CNN. Fox News eventually deleted it from its website, saying in a note left in its place that it failed to meet the network’s editorial standards.
Related: Story on DNC staffer’s murder dominated conservative media — hours later it fell apart
Now Wheeler, in his lawsuit, which was first reported by NPR, is coming forward with what he claims is the backstory: Fox News reporter Malia Zimmerman, with the “knowledge and support” of Butowsky, fabricated a pair of quotes attributed to Wheeler. It was all part of an effort to distract from the Russia narrative, the lawsuit said.
“Zimmerman, Butowsky and Fox had created fake news to advance President Trump’s agenda,” said the lawsuit, which named 21st Century Fox, the Fox News Channel, Zimmerman, and Butowsky as defendants. “Mr. Wheeler was subsequently forced to correct the false record and, as a result, lost all credibility in the eyes of the public. Mr. Wheeler has suffered irreparable damage to his reputation and his career will likely never recover.”
Related: Read the full lawsuit
Moreover, the lawsuit said, the White House was aware of the Fox News story ahead of publication.
Also:
http://www.latimes.com/business/hollywood/la-et-ct-fox-news-seth-rich-20170801-story.html
August 4, 2017 at 4:08 pm #71842Billy_TParticipantAnd the Rich family wants this exploitation to end. I don’t blame them. It’s beyond ghoulish, using him to score political points.
http://www.businessinsider.com/seth-rich-family-response-lawsuit-rod-wheeler-2017-8
he family of Seth Rich, a slain former Democratic National Committee staffer, responded to a new lawsuit that may shed light on the source of conspiracy theories about Rich’s death.
On Tuesday, former Fox News contributor Rod Wheeler sued the network, alleging that it and a well-connected supporter of President Donald Trump knowingly pushed a thinly-sourced conspiracy theory about Rich’s death to deflect from growing concerns about Trump’s potential ties to Russia.
In a statement to Business Insider, Rich’s family said it hoped the lawsuit puts an end to the various conspiracy theories swirling around Rich’s death last year.
“While we can’t speak to the evidence that you now have, we are hopeful that this brings an end to what has been the most emotionally difficult time in our lives and an end to conspiracy theories surrounding our beloved Seth,” the family said in a statement.
Wheeler, a former Metropolitan Police Department officer, was a key figure in a series of debunked stories claiming that Rich had been in contact with Wikileaks before his death. Fox News, which reported the story online and on television, retracted it in June.
Rich’s family has repeatedly called for an end to the bizarre saga, criticizing right-wing media figures like Sean Hannity for perpetuating unfounded theories about Rich’s death.
Police have said repeatedly that Rich was shot during an attempted robbery while he was walking home from a bar in Washington, DC.
Yet the staffer’s death has become the source of wild speculation, as right-wing media figures fanned unproven speculation that Rich was killed for leaking embarrassing internal emails of DNC staffers during the 2016 election. Numerous US intelligence agencies have concluded that Russian intelligence hacked and leaked internal DNC communications.
August 4, 2017 at 4:17 pm #71843Billy_TParticipantI still don’t get all the resistance to the fact that Russia hacked the election. That ship has sailed. They did it. The entire intel community here believes they did it, and they never agree about anything. The GOP and Dems agree that Russia did it, and they, too, never agree about anything. Europe believes they did it here and in Europe. European intel has long said they’ve been hacking elections across the globe.
Do we as well? Of course. America has been seriously interfering in elections around the globe at least since WWII. But it’s a strange and misguided step to go from “We do it too” to “They couldn’t have done it because, the Dems!” It makes zero sense to think that America and European governments would all conspire to present this united front, when it basically just amounts to what everyone has always known: The great powers have always played this game.
And those of us with an Internet background have known how good the Russians are at this stuff for a long, long time. It’s accepted knowledge among IT professionals that the vast majority of cyber-attacks come from Russia and its former satellites.
Again, I just don’t get the resistance to the obvious here.
August 4, 2017 at 4:26 pm #71845wvParticipantI still don’t get all the resistance to the fact that Russia hacked the election. That ship has sailed. They did it. The entire intel community here believes they did it, and they never agree about anything. The GOP and Dems agree that Russia did it, and they, too, never agree about anything. Europe believes they did it here and in Europe. European intel has long said they’ve been hacking elections across the globe.
Do we as well? Of course. America has been seriously interfering in elections around the globe at least since WWII. But it’s a strange and misguided step to go from “We do it too” to “They couldn’t have done it because, the Dems!” It makes zero sense to think that America and European governments would all conspire to present this united front, when it basically just amounts to what everyone has always known: The great powers have always played this game.
And those of us with an Internet background have known how good the Russians are at this stuff for a long, long time. It’s accepted knowledge among IT professionals that the vast majority of cyber-attacks come from Russia and its former satellites.
Again, I just don’t get the resistance to the obvious here.
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Well for starters Sy Hersh didnt say Russia didnt hack ‘anything’. He was specifically addressing the DNC-wikileaks instance. Thats all he addressed.
I personally dont know of anyone who thinks Russia didnt do some serious influencing/interfering/hacking/SOMETHING. We will never know exactly what they did and how much it affected the vote. All we will ever know is what the ‘intell community’ SAYS Russia did.And secondly, i wouldnt trust ‘anything‘ the ‘whole western Intell community’ said about ‘anything’. They are professional liars, BT. You know that. I mean how would YOU describe the CIA?
w
v- This reply was modified 7 years, 4 months ago by wv.
August 4, 2017 at 4:43 pm #71847Billy_TParticipantI still don’t get all the resistance to the fact that Russia hacked the election. That ship has sailed. They did it. The entire intel community here believes they did it, and they never agree about anything. The GOP and Dems agree that Russia did it, and they, too, never agree about anything. Europe believes they did it here and in Europe. European intel has long said they’ve been hacking elections across the globe.
Do we as well? Of course. America has been seriously interfering in elections around the globe at least since WWII. But it’s a strange and misguided step to go from “We do it too” to “They couldn’t have done it because, the Dems!” It makes zero sense to think that America and European governments would all conspire to present this united front, when it basically just amounts to what everyone has always known: The great powers have always played this game.
And those of us with an Internet background have known how good the Russians are at this stuff for a long, long time. It’s accepted knowledge among IT professionals that the vast majority of cyber-attacks come from Russia and its former satellites.
Again, I just don’t get the resistance to the obvious here.
==============
Well for starters Sy Hersh didnt say Russia didnt hack ‘anything’. He was specifically addressing the DNC-wikileaks instance. Thats all he addressed.
And secondly, i wouldnt trust ‘anything’ the ‘whole western Intell community’ said about ‘anything’. They are professional liars, BT. You know that. I mean how would YOU describe the CIA?
w
vBut the CIA is only one part of that, WV, and, again, the various intel organizations typically fight each other on issue after issue. They virtually never agree. But on this they do.
And that trust thing cuts many ways. It’s logical to be highly skeptical of any government’s intel community. But that includes Russia’s, too. Or any government’s “official story.” But that includes Russia’s too. So what are we left with, when it’s the competing stories of institutions we can’t really trust? Media. Corporations, etc. etc.
Common sense and logic. And it’s not logical, IMO, to assume that the DNC put out a hit on a staffer, even if we do say he leaked the info, and there’s no proof whatsoever that he did. Common sense and logic also tell us that, given Russia’s superiority in this realm — we’re superior in military and economic might; they’re superior in cyberland — Russia would focus on what they’re really, really good at . . . and would do what they did in Europe:
Push the far right parties and candidates to the degree possible. In America, that’s Trump/Bannon/Breitbart/Alt-right, etc. In France it was Le Pen. In the Netherlands, Wilders. And so on.
IMO, we’re waaay past all of this. It’s a done deal. It happened. We need to do whatever we can to prevent it from happening again, and to hold our own government accountable for its interference in elections overseas too.
Fuck both parties and both empires, in short. Or, as you’ve called them, gangster governments.
I just keep coming back to my sense of raw puzzlement over these discussions by some public figures/journalists. We just don’t have to choose sides here, but it seems some of these people think we do.
August 4, 2017 at 4:52 pm #71848znModeratorAnd secondly, i wouldnt trust ‘anything‘ the ‘whole western Intell community’ said about ‘anything’. They are professional liars, BT. You know that. I mean how would YOU describe the CIA?
No that’s far too categorical and simplistic. Those things are not all uniform, homogenous entities. Simply rejecting them in advance is as naive and uncritical in its own way as accepting everything they say. Plus it’s not just intel that paints that picture of Russian hacking. A lot of private research and investigation people say the same. It’s a pretty universal story.
I knew that as recently as the lead-up to the Bush invasion of Iraq, when much of the BEST anti-regime info came from an assortment of american intel people who were trying to open people’s eyes to what the neo-cons were doing. Those guys were right about all of it.
Now do you know who DOES lie all the time, act in a uniform way, choreograph everything internally, escapes whistle-blowing and national press scrutiny, and so on? Russian intel. That’s because it’s an authoritarian regime that is capable of forcing people to act uniformly, or else.
Meanwhile actual, real Russian left dissidence and resistance begs westerners to stop defending the regime that oppresses them.
…
August 4, 2017 at 4:55 pm #71849wvParticipantBut the CIA is only one part of that, WV, and, again, the various intel organizations typically fight each other on issue after issue. They virtually never agree. But on this they do.
And that trust thing cuts many ways. It’s logical to be highly skeptical of any government’s intel community. But that includes Russia’s, too. Or any government’s “official story.” But that includes Russia’s too. So what are we left with, when it’s the competing stories of institutions we can’t really trust? Media. Corporations, etc. etc.
Common sense and logic. And it’s not logical, IMO, to assume that the DNC put out a hit on a staffer, even if we do say he leaked the info, and there’s no proof whatsoever that he did. Common sense and logic also tell us that, given Russia’s superiority in this realm — we’re superior in military and economic might; they’re superior in cyberland — Russia would focus on what they’re really, really good at . . . and would do what they did in Europe:
Push the far right parties and candidates to the degree possible. In America, that’s Trump/Bannon/Breitbart/Alt-right, etc. In France it was Le Pen. In the Netherlands, Wilders. And so on.
IMO, we’re waaay past all of this. It’s a done deal. It happened. We need to do whatever we can to prevent it from happening again, and to hold our own government accountable for its interference in elections overseas too.
Fuck both parties and both empires, in short. Or, as you’ve called them, gangster governments.
I just keep coming back to my sense of raw puzzlement over these discussions by some public figures/journalists. We just don’t have to choose sides here, but it seems some of these people think we do.
==================
But the CIA also Cooperates with many ‘Intell agencies’ (and i hate that term ‘Intelligence’ — i’d rather just call them professional torture-lie-and-murder-agencies).
I think the corporotacracy/deep-state/whatever expands outside one nation. I think oftentimes many ‘intell’ agencies cooperate in the game of ‘protect and expand global corporate-capitalism.
As far as ‘trusting russian Intell’ yes, we should be wary of that. But I’m listening to Sy Hersh — is HE a member of Russian Intell? He’s a maverick. He’s been right about a LOT of things in the past. Has he suddenly gone stupid? Who knows more about ‘Intell’ than Sy Hersh?
At any rate, i dont know who ‘put out a hit’ on the guy. I have no idea. I ‘am’ interested in whether he gave the info to Wiki.
w
vAugust 4, 2017 at 4:56 pm #71850nittany ramModeratorI still don’t get all the resistance to the fact that Russia hacked the election. That ship has sailed. They did it. The entire intel community here believes they did it, and they never agree about anything. The GOP and Dems agree that Russia did it, and they, too, never agree about anything. Europe believes they did it here and in Europe. European intel has long said they’ve been hacking elections across the globe.
Do we as well? Of course. America has been seriously interfering in elections around the globe at least since WWII. But it’s a strange and misguided step to go from “We do it too” to “They couldn’t have done it because, the Dems!” It makes zero sense to think that America and European governments would all conspire to present this united front, when it basically just amounts to what everyone has always known: The great powers have always played this game.
And those of us with an Internet background have known how good the Russians are at this stuff for a long, long time. It’s accepted knowledge among IT professionals that the vast majority of cyber-attacks come from Russia and its former satellites.
Again, I just don’t get the resistance to the obvious here.
==============
Well for starters Sy Hersh didnt say Russia didnt hack ‘anything’. He was specifically addressing the DNC-wikileaks instance. Thats all he addressed.
I personally dont know of anyone who thinks Russia didnt do some serious influencing/interfering/hacking/SOMETHING. We will never know exactly what they did and how much it affected the vote. All we will ever know is what the ‘intell community’ SAYS Russia did.And secondly, i wouldnt trust ‘anything‘ the ‘whole western Intell community’ said about ‘anything’. They are professional liars, BT. You know that. I mean how would YOU describe the CIA?
w
vThe thing is wv, for all of these intelligence agencies that compete with one another and in many cases hate one another to be espousing the same lie would require a huge conspiracy. Don’t you think that because all these disparate intelligence agencies are saying the same things it means there’s probably something to it?
August 4, 2017 at 5:03 pm #71853wvParticipantI still don’t get all the resistance to the fact that Russia hacked the election. That ship has sailed. They did it. The entire intel community here believes they did it, and they never agree about anything. The GOP and Dems agree that Russia did it, and they, too, never agree about anything. Europe believes they did it here and in Europe. European intel has long said they’ve been hacking elections across the globe.
Do we as well? Of course. America has been seriously interfering in elections around the globe at least since WWII. But it’s a strange and misguided step to go from “We do it too” to “They couldn’t have done it because, the Dems!” It makes zero sense to think that America and European governments would all conspire to present this united front, when it basically just amounts to what everyone has always known: The great powers have always played this game.
And those of us with an Internet background have known how good the Russians are at this stuff for a long, long time. It’s accepted knowledge among IT professionals that the vast majority of cyber-attacks come from Russia and its former satellites.
Again, I just don’t get the resistance to the obvious here.
==============
Well for starters Sy Hersh didnt say Russia didnt hack ‘anything’. He was specifically addressing the DNC-wikileaks instance. Thats all he addressed.
I personally dont know of anyone who thinks Russia didnt do some serious influencing/interfering/hacking/SOMETHING. We will never know exactly what they did and how much it affected the vote. All we will ever know is what the ‘intell community’ SAYS Russia did.And secondly, i wouldnt trust ‘anything‘ the ‘whole western Intell community’ said about ‘anything’. They are professional liars, BT. You know that. I mean how would YOU describe the CIA?
w
vThe thing is wv, for all of these intelligence agencies that compete with one another and in many cases hate one another to be espousing the same lie would require a huge conspiracy. Don’t you think that because all these disparate intelligence agencies are saying the same things it means there’s probably something to it?
================
WEll first off just let me reiterate, there is no ‘heat’ coming from me on this. Zero heat. I’m just yacking to my friends here.
As far as the all these ‘intell’ agencies saying the same thing — I think its the WESTERN intell agancies joining the usual intell CHOIR. Are the EASTERN intell agencies saying the same thing?
It does not surprise me in the least that NATO intell agencies are parroting one another. Its a coalition of the Corporotacracy. And i wouldnt believe a damn thing any of them said.
And yes, sometimes they probably disagree on some things. That proves nothing. Sometimes they go along with each other. Bottom line for me is — they are professional-lying-organizations. They lie and lie and lie and lie. False Flag operations galore. Pysops operations galore. Misinformation, disinformation, Propaganda, Assassination, Coups, Drugs, Torture….shall i go on? You already know all this.
Why believe ‘them’ ? Why not at least be agnostic?
w
vAugust 4, 2017 at 5:07 pm #71855Billy_TParticipantThe thing is wv, for all of these intelligence agencies that compete with one another and in many cases hate one another to be espousing the same lie would require a huge conspiracy. Don’t you think that because all these disparate intelligence agencies are saying the same things it means there’s probably something to it?
That’s my thing, too. They typically hate each other. Especially the FBI and the CIA. But they agree on this.
Also, the FBI is supposed to be very “Republican,” with the rest of the Intel groups a mix of both parties. There is no “Deep State” set up by and for the Dems, as Hannity and company would like us to believe. But there is supposed to be a bit of a ideological split. Roughly centrist to almost far right. Our intel groups have no “leftist” component, as far as I know. So, I’m thinking, why would a fairly right-wing community — traditionally and currently — go out of its way to counter right-wing conspiracy theories, if there wasn’t a solid reason to?
August 4, 2017 at 5:24 pm #71860Billy_TParticipantAnother part of my reaction to all of this:
I don’t really “blame” Russia for wanting to manipulate elections around the world. It actually makes a lot of sense, in a Game of Thrones sort of way. And it’s what all the great powers have done, in one form or another, using the tech of the day, ever since we first had those elections . . . and before that, palace intrigue and so on.
We do it. They do it. All the powers do it.
The key really comes down to complicity on our side, and that’s where Trump comes in. He colluded with Russia. There isn’t an iota of doubt in my mind about that, and his son’s recent revelations and the published emails are the smoking gun for all of that. I’m also certain they’re only the tip of the proverbial iceberg.
But Trump’s collusion to win an election, IMO, isn’t the worst of it. I think it’s also a slam dunk that he’s up to his eyeballs in American and Russian mobsters, money laundering and major financial crimes, and I think Mueller is going to eventually bring all of that out. And all of this talk about the CIA, the DNC, Seth Rich and so on will seem like pure misdirection when that happens, because it actually is.
In short, I don’t think Americans should be “mad” about what Russia did and want to retaliate. We need peace. We need diplomacy. We need to get along in this world. Americans should be pissed off to no end that they elected a cut-rate mobster, who continues to lie about what he did to win the election, and his assault on the environment, science, workers, education, public lands and so on.
August 4, 2017 at 5:45 pm #71867wvParticipantAnother part of my reaction to all of this:
I don’t really “blame” Russia for wanting to manipulate elections around the world. It actually makes a lot of sense, in a Game of Thrones sort of way. And it’s what all the great powers have done, in one form or another, using the tech of the day, ever since we first had those elections . . . and before that, palace intrigue and so on.
We do it. They do it. All the powers do it.
==============
Ok if Trump is Cercei….who is/was Hillary? And who is Putin? And who is Bernie 🙂
w
v- This reply was modified 7 years, 4 months ago by wv.
August 4, 2017 at 5:57 pm #71869Billy_TParticipantAnother part of my reaction to all of this:
I don’t really “blame” Russia for wanting to manipulate elections around the world. It actually makes a lot of sense, in a Game of Thrones sort of way. And it’s what all the great powers have done, in one form or another, using the tech of the day, ever since we first had those elections . . . and before that, palace intrigue and so on.
We do it. They do it. All the powers do it.
==============
Ok if Trump is Cercei….who is/was Hillary? And who is Putin? And who is Bernie :>)
w
v;>)
I’d like to see everyone weigh on on this.
I don’t know. Bernie as Davos Seaworth? Putin as Euron? Hillary as a much older, much more bitter Sansa?
I don’t know if there’s a Danaerys or a Jon Snow on the horizon. But we definitely could use a Tyrion, or two, or three. And, well, Missandei. Perhaps Naomi Klein?
- This reply was modified 7 years, 4 months ago by Billy_T.
August 4, 2017 at 6:07 pm #71873wvParticipantAnother part of my reaction to all of this:
I don’t really “blame” Russia for wanting to manipulate elections around the world. It actually makes a lot of sense, in a Game of Thrones sort of way. And it’s what all the great powers have done, in one form or another, using the tech of the day, ever since we first had those elections . . . and before that, palace intrigue and so on.
We do it. They do it. All the powers do it.
==============
Ok if Trump is Cercei….who is/was Hillary? And who is Putin? And who is Bernie :>)
w
v;>)
I’d like to see everyone weigh on on this.
I don’t know. Bernie as Davos Seaworth? Putin as Euron? Hillary as a much older, much more bitter Sansa?
I don’t know if there’s a Danaerys or a Jon Snow on the horizon. But we definitely could use a Tyrion, or two, or three. And, well, Missandei. Perhaps Naomi Klein?
=====================
Ok now I’m bringing HEAT — Hillary is SANSA? No way, dude. Sansa is…is…good…and…nice….and…good.
Hillary is Cersei. Trump is…the Night King? The Night Clown?
🙂
w
vAugust 4, 2017 at 6:20 pm #71874Billy_TParticipantAnother part of my reaction to all of this:
I don’t really “blame” Russia for wanting to manipulate elections around the world. It actually makes a lot of sense, in a Game of Thrones sort of way. And it’s what all the great powers have done, in one form or another, using the tech of the day, ever since we first had those elections . . . and before that, palace intrigue and so on.
We do it. They do it. All the powers do it.
==============
Ok if Trump is Cercei….who is/was Hillary? And who is Putin? And who is Bernie :>)
w
v;>)
I’d like to see everyone weigh on on this.
I don’t know. Bernie as Davos Seaworth? Putin as Euron? Hillary as a much older, much more bitter Sansa?
I don’t know if there’s a Danaerys or a Jon Snow on the horizon. But we definitely could use a Tyrion, or two, or three. And, well, Missandei. Perhaps Naomi Klein?
=====================
Ok now I’m bringing HEAT — Hillary is SANSA? No way, dude. Sansa is…is…good…and…nice….and…good.
Hillary is Cersei. Trump is…the Night King? The Night Clown?
:>)
w
vI was surprised you didn’t have Clinton as Cersei from the beginning. She doesn’t really make much sense as Trump. She’s waaay too smart for him.
As for Sansa. I’m projecting. I like her character, too. But I can see how she might develop along rather sinister lines if she listens too often to Littlefinger. And, so far, she’s been horribly mistreated by all the men in her life except for Tyrion, and Jon seems not to take her seriously . . . . even though she likely saved his life in the Battle of the Bastards. Too much of that will turn a person ice cold.
Arya’s already gone over to the Dark Side. She once was a cute, feisty girl we could all root for. But, um, well, I think she may have carried her revenge thing a little bit too far. Assassinations are one thing, but pies? PIES!!
Cue ZN!!
August 4, 2017 at 7:41 pm #71878znModeratorAssassinations are one thing, but pies? PIES!!
Cue ZN!!
==
August 5, 2017 at 10:18 am #71902Billy_TParticipantThanks, ZN.
Those are really good.
;>)
August 6, 2017 at 6:23 pm #71987MackeyserModeratorMy take, WV, is…AND.
I think the Russians have (yes, present tense) multiple digital vectors into our country’s government and private sector infrastructures.
I also think that Seth Rich was the source of the emails.
I think no matter what the disposition of Rich, Trump et al were going to create a story about Rich’s death that would connect the Clintons.
I’m always leery of commenting on Clinton stuff anymore because she’s just so fucking dishonest and there are so many instances that she and Bill are either the single most persecuted couple of all time OR… some of the stuff is true. What’s difficult about that is that if even ONE thing against them is true (I mean the rape allegations against Bill by Juanita Broderick and others, White Water (remember, it’s not so much that they weren’t guilty as those who could tell the truth went to jail rather than implicate their partners), Hillary Clinton stock trades (actually, those were true, but she couldn’t be prosecuted because her broker went to jail rather than implicate her… a consistency I find troubling) and others.
The thing about these conspiracies like Vince Foster and Seth Rich is that there are ALWAYS some really henky details that just can’t be explained away.
In the Foster case, the idea of an officer of the court (Hillary) trampling a crime scene in order to recover files before the examiner can even get to the body? At best, it’s a stunning level of sociopathy, as in my files are more important than allowing the examiner to get to the body. I dunno the scene, but you can’t tell it’s suicide just because a person has a bullet hole in their head and there’s a gun around. And it’s not like Hillary was doing GSR tests, so she had no ability to determine whether Foster committed suicide or was murdered. In the absence of that knowledge, even if presuming suicide was reasonable, why would an officer of the court who knows the rules of evidence hamper the investigation into his death by altering the scene.
I mean even if she’s given the benefit of the doubt, it’s not good. At all. And of course, at worst, it’s everything the conspiracy theorists imagine.
Same with Rich. Apparently, he was shot in the back of the head and nothing was taken. Help did not arrive so quickly that a thief would have been interrupted. So, details of his death are sketchy. That he is likely the source of the emails to wikileaks is another factor.
So, it’s either that it was the oddest burglary or something wasn’t right.
That’s why I say with Clinton that one can never know. In instances where they were absolutely guilty, they were unprosecutable because others went to jail rather than implicate them. Without her stockbroker going to jail for her, Hillary totally goes to jail for stock fraud. That’s not conjecture.
So, when all of this came out, I saw liberals screaming about Russia.
I saw progressives dismissing the “Russia distraction” and some actually embracing the Rich story, which seemed to align progressives with Trumpettes…
I just see it as likely an AND.
Russia hacked. (The disturbing thing is that we have white hat hackers who have proven that the machines can be hacked and recent elections like the Ossoff election in Georgia’s 6th District had some disturbing anamolies that can’t really be explained outside of machine hacking)
AND.
Seth Rich transferred the emails to wikileaks (there is evidence that he was disenfranchised with what was going on in the Clinton campaign)
AND.
Because of a history of dubious activities by the Clintons, we’ll never know why Seth Rich was killed. Botched burglary? Assassination? Political payback? Who knows? I tend to think of these questions as Rohrshach tests, they tell more about the person answering than give any real answer to the question.
I don’t think it serves progressives to dismiss the Russia hacking which is ongoing and poised to be even worse as the relationship between Trump and Putin sours. Russia hacking us and Seth Rich being the source of the Clinton emails can happily coexist.
Sports is the crucible of human virtue. The distillate remains are human vice.
August 6, 2017 at 7:09 pm #71988Billy_TParticipantMac,
Hey, hope all is well, and best of luck with your move.
(Charlottesville might be worth looking into)
On that “co-existing” front. The Clintons can be your run of the mill deeply compromised politicians and not be murderers. They can be guilty of the typically sordid machinations needed to win power and maintain it, the selling out to the donor class, the support of the super rich while in office, the all too quick signing off on wars and covert ops, the lies, the spin, the rationalizations . . . but not be guilty of what right-wingers claim and have claimed for decades. They can be horrible people and still not be involved in Vince Foster’s suicide, or the Seth Rich case, etc. Those things can coexist. In short, we can have hopelessly neoliberal pols, all too cozy with Wall Street and the Military Industrial Complex, who also aren’t involved in any of the political right’s fever-dream faux-scandals. Benghazi, Foster, the email server, etc. etc.
As for Seth Rich. There is just no evidence whatsoever that he leaked emails to Wikileaks. It doesn’t exist. It’s pure conjecture, with no foundation outside Republican oppo research and Russian fake news operations. It’s a classic right-wing invention.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Seth_Rich
Seth Conrad Rich (January 3, 1989 – July 10, 2016) was an American employee for the Democratic National Committee (DNC) who was fatally shot in the Bloomingdale neighborhood of Washington, D.C.[1][2][3] As of May 2017 the shooting is still under investigation by the D.C. Metropolitan Police Department.[4]
The murder spawned several right-wing conspiracy theories about the crime, including the claim that Rich had been involved with the leaked DNC emails in 2016, which runs contrary to U.S. intelligence that concluded the leaked DNC emails were part of 2016 U.S. elections interference.[5][6][7] These theories were debunked by law enforcement,[5][6] as well as by fact-checking websites like PolitiFact.com,[6][8] Snopes.com,[9] and FactCheck.org.[5] The fabrications were described as fake news and falsehoods by The New York Times,[10] Los Angeles Times,[11] and The Washington Post.[12]
Rich’s parents condemned the conspiracy theorists and said that these individuals were exploiting their son’s death for political gain, with their spokesperson calling them “sociopaths” and “disgusting”.[13][14][15] They requested a retraction and apology from Fox News,[16] and sent a cease and desist letter to the investigator Fox News used.[6][15][16] The investigator admitted he had no evidence to back up his claims, and Fox News issued a retraction.[5][6][17]
ContentsAugust 6, 2017 at 7:22 pm #71991Billy_TParticipantIn addition for me . . . and I think the “both/and” thing is a really good frame to add to all of this . . .
I can loathe the Democratic Party, and the Republican Party, and economic apartheid (capitalism), and American, Russian, European, Asian empire, etc. etc. . . . . I can despise endless wars and warmongering, the destruction of the planet via the capitalist system and empires around the world, detest the “establishment” here and want to see them all removed from office . . . . and, not buy into right-wing fake news about their political opponents. It’s both/and for me.
As in, I don’t want the Clintons, or the Dems, or the GOP, or corporate America to have any say over our lives. I don’t see them as legitimate, in the Chomskyian, left-anarchist sense. I don’t see “the system” we suffer under as legitimate in that sense. I reject it. I reject our sham democracy. It’s a farce. It doesn’t represent me or the vast majority of Americans, and the system we share with nations around the world doesn’t represent the vast majority of human beings either.
But I also reject and detest and find despicable right-wing efforts to demonize opponents, and the escalation of those efforts that increasingly seem more and more unhinged. The bogus Seth Rich story is a part of that, as was the bogus story of the child sex ring at the Pizza shop. The dangerous exploitation of tragedy. The attempt to pin that on politicians from the other party.
I wish the duopoly would go away. It doesn’t deserve to hold any power. Not even dog catcher. But between the two wings of the money party, the GOP has long operated at a level of viciousness and lies that the Dems really can’t compete with. They’re just in a whole nuther league. And in my view, leftists should never, ever aid and abet them. We don’t have to choose between the two. Reject them both. But we don’t do that when we actually buy into their fringe conspiracies.
Just my two cents . . .
August 6, 2017 at 8:33 pm #71993wvParticipant“….But I also reject and detest and find despicable right-wing efforts to demonize opponents, and the escalation of those efforts that increasingly seem more and more unhinged. The bogus Seth Rich story is a part of that…”
Except Sy Hersh is hardly a rightwing nutjob pushing a rightwing conspiracy theory.
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vAugust 6, 2017 at 11:01 pm #72003Billy_TParticipant“….But I also reject and detest and find despicable right-wing efforts to demonize opponents, and the escalation of those efforts that increasingly seem more and more unhinged. The bogus Seth Rich story is a part of that…”
Except Sy Hersh is hardly a rightwing nutjob pushing a rightwing conspiracy theory.
w
vThis issue . . . It’s one of those “no dog in this race” kinds of things for me. I don’t take it personally. I don’t feel any personal animosity toward anyone with a different view. It’s okay. As the young kids used to say, whatever.
That said, yeah. I think Hersch is falling hook, line and sinker for a far-right fake news conspiracy, straight out of the Alex Jones school of trumped up idiocy. He should know better. And I know he’s not a RWNJ. But, IMO, he’s fallen for a RWNJ fake news story.
Anyway, hope we can just agree to disagree, etc. And with that, I’m bowing out of this one.
August 6, 2017 at 11:28 pm #72006wvParticipant“….But I also reject and detest and find despicable right-wing efforts to demonize opponents, and the escalation of those efforts that increasingly seem more and more unhinged. The bogus Seth Rich story is a part of that…”
Except Sy Hersh is hardly a rightwing nutjob pushing a rightwing conspiracy theory.
w
vThis issue . . . It’s one of those “no dog in this race” kinds of things for me. I don’t take it personally. I don’t feel any personal animosity toward anyone with a different view. It’s okay. As the young kids used to say, whatever.
That said, yeah. I think Hersch is falling hook, line and sinker for a far-right fake news conspiracy, straight out of the Alex Jones school of trumped up idiocy. He should know better. And I know he’s not a RWNJ. But, IMO, he’s fallen for a RWNJ fake news story.
Anyway, hope we can just agree to disagree, etc. And with that, I’m bowing out of this one.
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Sure we can agree to disagree. No big thing. I just dont think Hersh is that naive, BT. I dont think he’s on the same planet as Alex Jones.
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