3rd Degree Murder was the proper charge

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  • #115718
    waterfield
    Participant

    This from the L.A.Times by Harry Littman one time constitutional law professor and now in private practice.

    Column: Does third-degree murder sound too mild for Derek Chauvin? It’s exactly right

    https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2020-06-02/george-floyd-derek-chauvin-murder-charge

    Flowers in memory of George Floyd in Minneapolis.
    Outraged citizens have called for local prosecutors to levy first- or second-degree murder charges against Derek Chauvin in the killing of George Floyd in Minneapolis. But the third-degree charge is a wiser choice. (Carolyn Cole/Los Angeles Times)
    By HARRY LITMAN
    JUNE 2, 20202:54 PM
    There is an understandable clamor to throw the book at Derek Chauvin, the Minneapolis police officer who kneeled on George Floyd’s neck for nearly nine excruciating minutes, all captured in a video that has sparked violent protests around the country.

    Outraged citizens are calling on prosecutors to raise the state charges against him to first-degree murder from third-degree murder and manslaughter in the second degree. Others want the federal government to step in and prosecute Chauvin for civil rights violations.

    But if avoiding the potentially cataclysmic consequences of acquittal is the goal, the case is exactly where it should be: charged with caution and in the hands of Hennepin County, Minn., prosecutors.

    Police misconduct cases are notoriously difficult to prove. In direct contrast to other crimes, more often than not the jury acquits or settles on a lesser charge. It is incumbent on the prosecutor to fully appreciate the differences between the slice of the case everyone may see in a high-profile video, and the complete case, along with the legal standards, that a jury of 12 will one day use to come to judgment.

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    If you remember the Rodney King case, you remember the searing video recording of officers beating King 33 times with a baton.

    But the case in court also included testimony that King took the police on an 80-mile chase after he was ordered to pull his car over, and that the officers reasonably believed King was high on PCP (he wasn’t, though he did have marijuana in his system) when they stopped him. Combined with law that told the jury to consider the situation from the vantage point of a reasonable police officer, and the tendency of many juries to give police the benefit of the doubt in dangerous situations, that evidence led the state jury to acquit on most charges.

    The federal team, at that point prosecuting not a murder case but a “denial of civil rights” case, had the benefit of seeing the way the jury reacted in the state trial. They approached the facts very conservatively. The theory they presented conceded the reasonableness of the initial force against King but isolated the very end of the beating as the point where the officers crossed the constitutional line.

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    The lessons are clear for the Chauvin case. The bystander video shot outside Cup Foods in Minneapolis understandably persuades nearly everyone that there is no punishment that is too severe for Chauvin. But what can prosecutors actually prove?

    Under Minnesota law, murder in the first degree, the charge many are calling for, requires premeditation. A 911 call brought Chauvin and Floyd together; premeditation is plainly not suited to the facts.

    What about murder in the second degree? It requires the prosecution to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant intended to kill. Look carefully and soberly at the video — all 8:46 minutes of Chauvin’s knee on Floyd’s neck — and put yourself in the prosecutor’s shoes. Can you confidently predict that a jury, shielded from outside commentary during the trial and exposed just to the strongest arguments on both sides, will unanimously determine that Chauvin without a doubt intended to kill Floyd?

    The defining fact of this killing — relative to other cases of unreasonable force — is Chauvin’s chilling cavalier nature as his knee pushes on Floyd’s neck, a move that Minneapolis police are permitted to use only if a suspect is actively resisting. (Floyd was lying flat, in handcuffs.)

    Prosecutors will argue that Chauvin’s almost lackadaisical attitude reveals the very essence of a “depraved heart” or extreme indifference to human life, which is the level of intent required to prove murder in the third degree.

    To be safe, prosecutors added another, lesser charge — manslaughter in the second degree. That requires not depravity but just negligence under Minnesota law, that Chauvin created “an unreasonable risk, and consciously [took]chances of causing death or great bodily harm,” as the complaint against him reads.

    The defense will present that very same evidence — Chauvin’s impassivity — as an indication not of depravity but simple inattention. His lawyers will be able to point to important additional facts besides the video. According to the store clerk who called 911, Floyd was “awfully drunk” and “not in control of himself.” Floyd resisted getting into the police car, saying he was claustrophobic, and he complained about not being able to breathe before he was handcuffed on the ground. Finally, the lawyers will mount an argument over the exact cause of death.

    There are, after all, competing autopsies. The county medical examiner concluded that the cause of death was “cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression.” He also noted underlying heart disease. The examiner hired by the Floyd family said there were no underlying conditions and the cause of death was “mechanical asphyxiation.”

    Hennepin County Atty. Mike Freeman’s charges against Chauvin may seem too modest, but they fit the facts. As for the prospect of a federal prosecution, the more appropriate role for the Department of Justice at this point is exactly what it’s doing — helping with the investigation. The feds will be ready to serve as a backstop if justice isn’t served at the state level, as they did in the Rodney King case.

    Given the video, the community outrage and the righteous national anger engendered by Floyd’s killing, there’s a temptation for prosecutors to go for broke. But in this case, they were wise, not to mention fair, in going no further than a conservative view of the evidence could take them.

    @HarryLitman

    OPINIONOP-ED

    • This topic was modified 4 years, 5 months ago by Avatar photozn.
    #115722
    Avatar photoInvaderRam
    Moderator

    whatever it is. and i’m not a legal expert. but they have to be consistent.

    and all four need to be charged.

    and there’s no reason he should have even been on his stomach not even mentioning a knee being pressed into the back of his neck. if he really was complaining of not breathing well and was in distress, you don’t put him on the ground and have four officers putting their body weight on him. and again not even mentioning the fact that he wasn’t resisting a damn thing.

    and if you listen to the call, the guy even returned the cigarettes he bought with the supposed counterfeit bill. i mean what the hell? this is just madness.

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 5 months ago by Avatar photoInvaderRam.
    #115725
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    “….prosecutors added another, lesser charge — manslaughter in the second degree. That requires not depravity but just negligence under Minnesota law, that Chauvin created “an unreasonable risk, and consciously [took]chances of causing death or great bodily harm,” as the complaint against him reads.

    The defense will present that very same evidence — Chauvin’s impassivity — as an indication not of depravity but simple inattention. His lawyers will be able to point to important additional facts besides the video. According to the store clerk who called 911, Floyd was “awfully drunk” and “not in control of himself.” Floyd resisted getting into the police car, saying he was claustrophobic, and he complained about not being able to breathe before he was handcuffed on the ground. Finally, the lawyers will mount an argument over the exact cause of death….”
    ==============

    Well, third degree is indeed a slam dunk, but if i had been prosecuting it, i would have charged second degree, and then also give the jury the chance to convict on the slam-dunk third-degree charge.

    Actually, its a no-brainer to me. But I think if you got ten lawyers in a room, you’d get five saying go with Third Degree and five would say go for Second Degree.

    Btw, I think the fact he was complaining he couldnt breathe BEFORE the cop put his knee on his neck, works FOR the prosecution. If thats not negligence, i dont know what is. The cop was already on notice that the guy was having breathing problems.

    Plus, of course if you charge 2nd degree you might get a Plea to Third Degree, etc.

    w
    v

    #115730
    Avatar photoInvaderRam
    Moderator

    Btw, I think the fact he was complaining he couldnt breathe BEFORE the cop put his knee on his neck, works FOR the prosecution. If thats not negligence, i dont know what is. The cop was already on notice that the guy was having breathing problems.

    yeah. i’m not a lawyer. but that’s how i see it.

    #115734
    waterfield
    Participant

    “….prosecutors added another, lesser charge — manslaughter in the second degree. That requires not depravity but just negligence under Minnesota law, that Chauvin created “an unreasonable risk, and consciously [took]chances of causing death or great bodily harm,” as the complaint against him reads.

    The defense will present that very same evidence — Chauvin’s impassivity — as an indication not of depravity but simple inattention. His lawyers will be able to point to important additional facts besides the video. According to the store clerk who called 911, Floyd was “awfully drunk” and “not in control of himself.” Floyd resisted getting into the police car, saying he was claustrophobic, and he complained about not being able to breathe before he was handcuffed on the ground. Finally, the lawyers will mount an argument over the exact cause of death….”
    ==============

    Well, third degree is indeed a slam dunk, but if i had been prosecuting it, i would have charged second degree, and then also give the jury the chance to convict on the slam-dunk third-degree charge.

    Actually, its a no-brainer to me. But I think if you got ten lawyers in a room, you’d get five saying go with Third Degree and five would say go for Second Degree.

    Btw, I think the fact he was complaining he couldnt breathe BEFORE the cop put his knee on his neck, works FOR the prosecution. If thats not negligence, i dont know what is. The cop was already on notice that the guy was having breathing problems.

    Plus, of course if you charge 2nd degree you might get a Plea to Third Degree, etc.

    w
    v

    Yeah-its a close call between second degree and 3rd degree murder. I get they charged it the way they did though. In order to get to 2d degree they have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt the officer INTENDED to kill Floyd. While they don’t need premeditated they still need the intent to kill. Having said that I wouldn’t be surprised if they amended to include 2d degree for the reasons you wrote. I don’t know the prison term but I would think it would be about 25 years. A cop in prison is not a good place to be.

    #115797
    Avatar photocanadaram
    Participant

    #115798
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    This from the L.A.Times by Harry Littman one time constitutional law professor and now in private practice.

    W–

    articles have to include links.

    I edited one in for you.

    #115801
    waterfield
    Participant

    Yeah-clearly I’m not good at that stuff. Sorry.

    #115802
    Avatar photozn
    Moderator

    Yeah-clearly I’m not good at that stuff. Sorry.

    No big. I appreciate the article. Read it with interest. And if you forget a link in the future I will just add it. Easy enough.

    #115830
    Mackeyser
    Moderator

    factors for 2nd degree: They knew each other for as long as 17 years. That doesn’t lend itself to the manner of interaction. Also, there is video of Chauvin opening the truck door and initiating the throwing of punches.

    factors for 3rd degree: difficult to prove intent beyond a reasonable doubt. I have no doubt that a lot of things that would be very helpful in convicting on 2nd degree will be excluded making the finding of 2nd degree much harder. 3rd degree is a slam dunk.

    I really hope that when it comes to being indicted that they go with 2nd and 3rd degree murder charges in addition to 2nd degree manslaughter.

    Sports is the crucible of human virtue. The distillate remains are human vice.

    #115843
    Avatar photoEternal Ramnation
    Participant

    Wtf? Did you even listen to the video? Chauvin tells him it’s his time.That was straight up 1st degree Murder. At any rate prison will be the death sentence he deserves .

    #115893
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    #115895
    waterfield
    Participant

    Good stuff. Unfortunately it reminds me of 1st year law school and a class in Criminal Law. What’s interesting is the discussion of prosecutorial discretion and the weighing of prospective charges. That is NOT taught in law school. It’s experience.

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