One reason leftists don’t think much of liberals

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  • #115640
    Avatar photoZooey
    Moderator
    #115663
    waterfield
    Participant

    Biden is right ! If a cop’s life is threatened better to disable the attacker than kill him. Lets look beyond the headlines.

    #115666
    Mackeyser
    Moderator

    Sports is the crucible of human virtue. The distillate remains are human vice.

    #115671
    waterfield
    Participant

    Given my job I’ve had in the past to sue individual officers and police departments for unreasonable and unauthorized conduct that result in injuries to another. In that light I have reviewed police manuals from both the LAPD and the LA County Sheriffs. There is nothing about shooting an “unarmed” man or woman in the heart. Addressing an attacker the following is a brief sum of what actually is in a manual: if an officers reasonably believes his life is in danger he was the right and obligation to do what is necessary to protect himself or herself. What Biden is suggesting is that in that situation officers can and should be trained to shoot to disable an attacker rather than kill them. Many police departments do precisely that. Of course not always does an officer in the heat of an attack ask “hey are you armed”.

    Common guys. I know when police conduct is outside the boundaries. But how about some fairness on this subject. Otherwise it simply smells like agenda driven politics.

    #115677
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    Biden did say he opposed ‘cash bail’ which is nice.
    The shooting to maim comment was stupid and is an example of his tone-deafness.

    He needs to come out with an eight or ten point plan for CHANGING police forces. Not a rambling, half-assed cliche-fest.

    Its an historical time. What will he actually DO to prevent police brutality?

    w
    v

    #115678
    Mackeyser
    Moderator

    How about this?

    Part of the reason cops feel afraid for their lives is that a) they’re out of shape, b) white and are scared of black people and c) don’t have the adequate non-lethal training be it Krav Maga or BJJ to subdue people.

    I had the occasion to talk with a CRASH cop, short, stout Korean dude who would FUME at the lazy cops who would shoot instead of scrap.

    Yeah, it’s dangerous, but that’s why they get paid and are given larger protections under the law. Harming a police officer is an aggravating factor.

    I’ve seen videos of cops doing it exactly right and plenty of videos of them doing it exactly wrong…like, in every way.

    There are differences in the behaviors and beliefs of cops who draw only as a last resort and those cops who draw and unsafely their weapon even before they can fully examine the situation.

    I’ve yet to see a single person who’s about this issue in good faith EVER criticize a cop for engaging in good faith, even if that ended in death.

    The problem is that Dylan Roof killed 9 people and was gently taken into custody. He went to jail without a mark on him.

    Chauvin murdered Floyd, who he’d known for as much as 17 years due to working in the same place after hours, by literally choking him to death…in broad daylight…while being filmed.

    How about the police need to justify any use of force as opposed to the people having to PROVE that they did nothing to provoke violence against them by police.

    Also, are we gonna talk about provocation? It used to be that one had to threaten or endanger a cop in order to justify violence. Now? Just tell the cop to fuck himself and he’ll bring all the violence he can muster AND with the support of the state UNLESS the citizen can prove that the violence is unjustified.

    The TL;dr in this is that this isn’t the time to make the “most cops are good cops” argument.

    Good cops would have intervened in all this bullshit long ago… even if we just start with Rodney King… And they fucking don’t. It’s almost unheard of for a police officer to support the citizen over the fellow cop EVEN IF THE COP IS ENGAGED IN ILLEGAL ACTIVITY.

    So yeah, rather than shoot people in the extremities ala Barnaby Jones, maybe..Oh, I dunno… actually de-escalate and if needed engage in non-lethal measures?

    Sports is the crucible of human virtue. The distillate remains are human vice.

    #115686
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    How about this?

    Part of the reason cops feel afraid for their lives is that a) they’re out of shape, b) white and are scared of black people and c) don’t have the adequate non-lethal training be it Krav Maga or BJJ to subdue people.

    I had the occasion to talk with a CRASH cop, short, stout Korean dude who would FUME at the lazy cops who would shoot instead of scrap.

    Yeah, it’s dangerous, but that’s why they get paid and are given larger protections under the law. Harming a police officer is an aggravating factor.

    I’ve seen videos of cops doing it exactly right and plenty of videos of them doing it exactly wrong…like, in every way.

    There are differences in the behaviors and beliefs of cops who draw only as a last resort and those cops who draw and unsafely their weapon even before they can fully examine the situation.

    I’ve yet to see a single person who’s about this issue in good faith EVER criticize a cop for engaging in good faith, even if that ended in death.

    The problem is that Dylan Roof killed 9 people and was gently taken into custody. He went to jail without a mark on him.

    Chauvin murdered Floyd, who he’d known for as much as 17 years due to working in the same place after hours, by literally choking him to death…in broad daylight…while being filmed.

    How about the police need to justify any use of force as opposed to the people having to PROVE that they did nothing to provoke violence against them by police.

    Also, are we gonna talk about provocation? It used to be that one had to threaten or endanger a cop in order to justify violence. Now? Just tell the cop to fuck himself and he’ll bring all the violence he can muster AND with the support of the state UNLESS the citizen can prove that the violence is unjustified.

    The TL;dr in this is that this isn’t the time to make the “most cops are good cops” argument.

    Good cops would have intervened in all this bullshit long ago… even if we just start with Rodney King… And they fucking don’t. It’s almost unheard of for a police officer to support the citizen over the fellow cop EVEN IF THE COP IS ENGAGED IN ILLEGAL ACTIVITY.

    So yeah, rather than shoot people in the extremities ala Barnaby Jones, maybe..Oh, I dunno… actually de-escalate and if needed engage in non-lethal measures?

    =====================

    Well, most of the cops I know here in WV, are already very much into Braz.Ju.Jitsu etc. They love that stuff.

    Which is nice. But BJJ knowledge still wont stop Racist-Cops from being Brutal.

    I think there’s gotta be some form of civilian review board for incidents. The Fox just cant be in charge of the hen-house.

    w
    v

    #115688
    waterfield
    Participant

    Biden did say he opposed ‘cash bail’ which is nice.
    The shooting to maim comment was stupid and is an example of his tone-deafness.

    He needs to come out with an eight or ten point plan for CHANGING police forces. Not a rambling, half-assed cliche-fest.

    Its an historical time. What will he actually DO to prevent police brutality?

    w
    v

    I’ll tell you how you change “police forces”. Get the bad cops out ! But that ain’t so easy. The core culprits are the police unions-and their attorneys- who will not budge an inch on police brutality claims and will always claim bad conduct was justified. Much like teacher’s unions protecting bad teachers that make it all impossible to fire a teacher that has tenure. And all 1st responders have unions that are paid to prevent any type of disciplinary action against one of their members. And its costly for taxpayers and burdensome on governing authorities to overcome that in court. Been there done that. But THAT is where the reforming must begin. Right square in the face of the unions at the bargaining table when the cops-bad and good-come clamoring for more and more money, benefits and ever increasing measures to protect the bad cops. The Floyd case was an anomaly. The officer’s conduct was recorded for the public to see. He HAD to be charged and the union could not in good faith run interference. But it took until the video surfaced before any resemblance of justice could begin. But most police brutality cases-and you know this as well as I do-are not out in the public to see. Reform is badly needed but the real secret is that it must start with the bargaining agreements formed in negotiations over police salaries, benefits, and independent investigations into claims of conduct by individual officers. That is where it starts. And guess where I got that from WV? Biden himself !

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 6 months ago by waterfield.
    #115691
    Mackeyser
    Moderator

    That’s a start, Waterfield.

    But understand that Biden’s not the genesis of ANYTHING related to reform.

    If he parrots something good, understand while it’s better than parroting something bad, it’s still parroting.

    The only three times he was himself was when he admitted to whoring himself out to corporate America, the 1994 Crime Bill and the countless times he tried to cut social security and medicare/medicaid.

    Everything else was just some shit to say to get elected or make people feel better…

    Sports is the crucible of human virtue. The distillate remains are human vice.

    #115708
    Avatar photoZooey
    Moderator

    Given my job I’ve had in the past to sue individual officers and police departments for unreasonable and unauthorized conduct that result in injuries to another. In that light I have reviewed police manuals from both the LAPD and the LA County Sheriffs. There is nothing about shooting an “unarmed” man or woman in the heart. Addressing an attacker the following is a brief sum of what actually is in a manual: if an officers reasonably believes his life is in danger he was the right and obligation to do what is necessary to protect himself or herself. What Biden is suggesting is that in that situation officers can and should be trained to shoot to disable an attacker rather than kill them. Many police departments do precisely that. Of course not always does an officer in the heat of an attack ask “hey are you armed”.

    Common guys. I know when police conduct is outside the boundaries. But how about some fairness on this subject. Otherwise it simply smells like agenda driven politics.

    My point was not about cops. My point was about Biden.

    He had a WEEK to come up with a statement on this, and he came up with “shoot them in the legs?” That’s the compromise? That’s just…embarrassing.

    I take it for granted that the police should NEVER shoot to kill. Never. Any fatalities at the hands of the police should be accidental. They are not judge, jury, and executioners.

    #115711
    waterfield
    Participant

    Given my job I’ve had in the past to sue individual officers and police departments for unreasonable and unauthorized conduct that result in injuries to another. In that light I have reviewed police manuals from both the LAPD and the LA County Sheriffs. There is nothing about shooting an “unarmed” man or woman in the heart. Addressing an attacker the following is a brief sum of what actually is in a manual: if an officers reasonably believes his life is in danger he was the right and obligation to do what is necessary to protect himself or herself. What Biden is suggesting is that in that situation officers can and should be trained to shoot to disable an attacker rather than kill them. Many police departments do precisely that. Of course not always does an officer in the heat of an attack ask “hey are you armed”.

    Common guys. I know when police conduct is outside the boundaries. But how about some fairness on this subject. Otherwise it simply smells like agenda driven politics.

    My point was not about cops. My point was about Biden.

    He had a WEEK to come up with a statement on this, and he came up with “shoot them in the legs?” That’s the compromise? That’s just…embarrassing.

    I take it for granted that the police should NEVER shoot to kill. Never. Any fatalities at the hands of the police should be accidental. They are not judge, jury, and executioners.

    First of all: Biden has addressed the point often and for a long, long, time including even before he was Obama’s VP. His point has always been if possible whey a police officer’s life is in danger by an attack the police should be trained to disable the attacker instead of the freedom to kill. But he and legislators are ALWAYS faced with push back by police unions because they know their members are against that. So- back to your point-your wrong on Biden.

    Now let me ask you this. You are home with your family and subject to a break in. You and your family are threatened with not just physical harm but possible death. You have a gun. (don’t dodge the Q by saying the hypo doesn’t apply because you don’t have a gun) Do you believe you have the right to be “judge, jury, and executioner” and do whatever is necessary to kill the intruder?. Now the odds are that likely will never happen to you. And you do not likely have a gun. But police see that every day. Most, if not all, police unions will argue with Biden that when facing an attack it is difficult if not impossible to know if that person has a loaded small firearm-moreover, many policemen and women have had their weapon taken from them in a struggle and used against them-and that is why they continue to oppose anything less that use of lethal means.

    These are not easy issues and don’t deserve simplistic answers. I certainly don’t have easy answers. I do have one easy answer: If I saw a person about to attack my daughter with a knife or any member of my family I would do whatever I needed to prevent that from happening and if that was to kill the attacker I would. Would you ?

    BTW: just as I finished the above I learned a police officer in Vegas is on life support right now for being shot in the head by a so-called “protester”.

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 6 months ago by waterfield.
    #115716
    Avatar photoInvaderRam
    Moderator

    has anyone here been a cop? i haven’t. can’t even imagine what it would be like to be a cop. i’ve met officers in law enforcement. some of them have ptsd from years of seeing shit no person should ever see.

    mental health evaluation would be at the top of my list. evaluate these officers’ well being. see if they’re fit to go out on the streets.

    some stats i’ve read show that rates of ptsd are similar to rates seen in veterans. 6 times higher than the general population. shoot some of them have come from the military and are still dealing with issues from their tours of duty.

    i actually sometimes wonder if ptsd issues are affecting some of these officers during the protests with all the yelling and confusion and explosions going on.

    we have to treat this problem with compassion.

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 6 months ago by Avatar photoInvaderRam.
    #115719
    Avatar photoInvaderRam
    Moderator

    and that’s not to say that there aren’t racist cops out there. shoot. this country is racist.

    the lady who called the cops on the bird watcher. the men who chased down ahmaud arbery and shot him dead for jogging.

    that’s the sad reality. racism is a societal issue – not just a law enforcement issue.

    #115721
    waterfield
    Participant

    has anyone here been a cop? i haven’t. can’t even imagine what it would be like to be a cop. i’ve met officers in law enforcement. some of them have ptsd from years of seeing shit no person should ever see.

    mental health evaluation would be at the top of my list. evaluate these officers’ well being. see if they’re fit to go out on the streets.

    some stats i’ve read show that rates of ptsd are similar to rates seen in veterans. 6 times higher than the general population. shoot some of them have come from the military and are still dealing with issues from their tours of duty.

    i actually sometimes wonder if ptsd issues are affecting some of these officers during the protests with all the yelling and confusion and explosions going on.

    we have to treat this problem with compassion.

    I agree with all that. It takes a special “type” to be a cop. Someone that’s either not afraid or looks forward to being in physical combat much like college and professional football players. Given that mentality or lack of fear for aggression, it would not be surprising that many are “pre-disposed” to acting in a violent manner in response to all that you noted that’s happening during large protests w/ “yelling, confusion, and explosions”.

    #115724
    Avatar photoInvaderRam
    Moderator

    I agree with all that. It takes a special “type” to be a cop. Someone that’s either not afraid or looks forward to being in physical combat much like college and professional football players. Given that mentality or lack of fear for aggression, it would not be surprising that many are “pre-disposed” to acting in a violent manner in response to all that you noted that’s happening during large protests w/ “yelling, confusion, and explosions”.

    and that’s also not to discount the trauma that victims of interaction with law enforcement go through. that’s also a real thing which needs to be addressed. mental health in general is a huge problem in this country.

    and yeah. what predisposes a person to want to go into law enforcement? are they more likely to have suffered certain traumas early in their life.

    first responders suffer ptsd at a rate of anywhere from 19% to 30% i’ve seen in some studies. i’m guessing it’s probably higher since they are most likely underreported.

    just briefly looking online, i saw a study that showed african americans from low socioeconomic status suffered from ptsd at a rate of 44%.

    the general population suffers from ptsd at a rate of 3%.

    #115726
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    Biden did say he opposed ‘cash bail’ which is nice.
    The shooting to maim comment was stupid and is an example of his tone-deafness.

    He needs to come out with an eight or ten point plan for CHANGING police forces. Not a rambling, half-assed cliche-fest.

    Its an historical time. What will he actually DO to prevent police brutality?

    w
    v

    I’ll tell you how you change “police forces”. Get the bad cops out ! But that ain’t so easy. The core culprits are the police unions-and their attorneys- who will not budge an inch on police brutality claims and will always claim bad conduct was justified. Much like teacher’s unions protecting bad teachers that make it all impossible to fire a teacher that has tenure. And all 1st responders have unions that are paid to prevent any type of disciplinary action against one of their members. And its costly for taxpayers and burdensome on governing authorities to overcome that in court. Been there done that. But THAT is where the reforming must begin. Right square in the face of the unions at the bargaining table when the cops-bad and good-come clamoring for more and more money, benefits and ever increasing measures to protect the bad cops. The Floyd case was an anomaly. The officer’s conduct was recorded for the public to see. He HAD to be charged and the union could not in good faith run interference. But it took until the video surfaced before any resemblance of justice could begin. But most police brutality cases-and you know this as well as I do-are not out in the public to see. Reform is badly needed but the real secret is that it must start with the bargaining agreements formed in negotiations over police salaries, benefits, and independent investigations into claims of conduct by individual officers. That is where it starts. And guess where I got that from WV? Biden himself !

    ==============

    I disagree. I think Unions are vital. Critical.

    There’s gotta be a way to have strong Unions and still fire Brutal Cops.
    I simply do not buy the argument that we cant have both Unions and Decent-Cops.

    But i absolutely GUARANTEE you the rightwingers and the corporate-dems WILL use this crisis to try and weaken the police Unions.

    Good lord.

    w
    v

    #115727
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    and that’s not to say that there aren’t racist cops out there. shoot. this country is racist.

    the lady who called the cops on the bird watcher. the men who chased down ahmaud arbery and shot him dead for jogging.

    that’s the sad reality. racism is a societal issue – not just a law enforcement issue.

    ==================

    Civilian Review Boards. Made up of Community Members.

    The Police are PUBLIC servants. They should be accountable to US.

    w
    v

    #115731
    waterfield
    Participant

    and that’s not to say that there aren’t racist cops out there. shoot. this country is racist.

    the lady who called the cops on the bird watcher. the men who chased down ahmaud arbery and shot him dead for jogging.

    that’s the sad reality. racism is a societal issue – not just a law enforcement issue.

    ==================

    Civilian Review Boards. Made up of Community Members.

    The Police are PUBLIC servants. They should be accountable to US.

    w
    v

    I know you think unions are critical. Its in your gestalt. I’m pretty sure most followers of Karl Marx and his view of socialism are in the same camp. I know the contributions and protections that unions “in general” provide. But I’m not sure you recognize the dark side as well. You ask for civilian review board to address police misconduct. Can you actually foresee police unions agreeing to that? Can you imagine the police unions NOT fighting any legislative movement to provide for a civilian review board for misconduct? In the Floyd case the police union had to backtrack on early statements made in support of the accused officer. My wife was a school superintendent who fought the school employees union over the firing of the entire maintenance staff involved in pornography and the selling of guns and ammunition ON the school premises. They never gave up protecting the perverts and those illegally selling weapons within the district office on weekends. One “union member” lived in a trailer connected with the district’s electricity and for years -before Barb took over-had been using the district’s electricity. The union did everything in their power to try and get Barb fired and if it wasn’t for a strong Board of Ed. they might have succeeded. But when she worked late at night and on the weekends she was under the protection of police security. In the end the entire maintenance dept of a very large school district was terminated. Her professional and personal life was threatened and if it wasn’t for the courts restraining orders that were strictly enforced she may not have kept her job.

    Now you may have a general belief that since unions are there to protect workers from management but you may not know of the dark side. My wife who -after working in the aerospace industry-began teaching and worked up into various administrative positions and ultimately became a school superintendent. She HAS experienced what a vengeful union can do all in the name of protecting its members. She is also aware of the many totally incompetent teachers that cannot be removed from their position because of rights , including tenure, negotiated by teacher unions during bargaining negotiations. Keep in mind she WAS a teacher-albeit not a member of CTLA-and was nominated by the State of California as one of three best teachers in the State.

    So, its fine to take the general stand of I’m all for unions no matter what because I believe in the little guy who will always be trampled by employers if it isn’t for the unions. That’s fine but you should have an open mind. In that light the main reason you have bad cops that continue working is protection form their union. If you have a way to change that -well-as the Brits say “carry on”.

    #115732
    Avatar photoInvaderRam
    Moderator

    Civilian Review Boards. Made up of Community Members.

    The Police are PUBLIC servants. They should be accountable to US.

    absolutely.

    and i think mental health has to be addressed as well. at all levels. for all people.

    but yes. when the public grants you that much power, you have to be held accountable. there is no self-policing when it comes to that.

    absolutely.

    #115736
    Avatar photoInvaderRam
    Moderator

    and not to just excuse law enforcement. but the average life expectancy of a cop is 57 years. 57 years. 22 years younger than the general population.

    the leading cause of deaths among cops is suicide. i’m not sure if that includes retirement. but shoot. if the average life expectancy is 57 you’re probably not living long past retirement.

    but again. african american communities of low socioeconomic status. what kinds of trauma do they experience all throughout their lives? i can’t even imagine.

    it’s all just so tragic.

    #115740
    waterfield
    Participant

    and not to just excuse law enforcement. but the average life expectancy of a cop is 57 years. 57 years. 22 years younger than the general population.

    the leading cause of deaths among cops is suicide. i’m not sure if that includes retirement. but shoot. if the average life expectancy is 57 you’re probably not living long past retirement.

    but again. african american communities of low socioeconomic status. what kinds of trauma do they experience all throughout their lives? i can’t even imagine.

    it’s all just so tragic.

    Well written. I share your concerns as I’m sure many do. Your approach to this is inspiring-a look at both sides. There are no good guys or bad guys.

    #115739
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    and that’s not to say that there aren’t racist cops out there. shoot. this country is racist.

    the lady who called the cops on the bird watcher. the men who chased down ahmaud arbery and shot him dead for jogging.

    that’s the sad reality. racism is a societal issue – not just a law enforcement issue.

    ==================

    Civilian Review Boards. Made up of Community Members.

    The Police are PUBLIC servants. They should be accountable to US.

    w
    v

    I know you think unions are critical. Its in your gestalt. I’m pretty sure most followers of Karl Marx and his view of socialism are in the same camp. I know the contributions and protections that unions “in general” provide. But I’m not sure you recognize the dark side as well. You ask for civilian review board to address police misconduct. Can you actually foresee police unions agreeing to that? Can you imagine the police unions NOT fighting any legislative movement to provide for a civilian review board for misconduct? In the Floyd case the police union had to backtrack on early statements made in support of the accused officer. My wife was a school superintendent who fought the school employees union over the firing of the entire maintenance staff involved in pornography and the selling of guns and ammunition ON the school premises. They never gave up protecting the perverts and those illegally selling weapons within the district office on weekends. One “union member” lived in a trailer connected with the district’s electricity and for years -before Barb took over-had been using the district’s electricity. The union did everything in their power to try and get Barb fired and if it wasn’t for a strong Board of Ed. they might have succeeded. But when she worked late at night and on the weekends she was under the protection of police security. In the end the entire maintenance dept of a very large school district was terminated. Her professional and personal life was threatened and if it wasn’t for the courts restraining orders that were strictly enforced she may not have kept her job.

    Now you may have a general belief that since unions are there to protect workers from management but you may not know of the dark side. My wife who -after working in the aerospace industry-began teaching and worked up into various administrative positions and ultimately became a school superintendent. She HAS experienced what a vengeful union can do all in the name of protecting its members. She is also aware of the many totally incompetent teachers that cannot be removed from their position because of rights , including tenure, negotiated by teacher unions during bargaining negotiations. Keep in mind she WAS a teacher-albeit not a member of CTLA-and was nominated by the State of California as one of three best teachers in the State.

    So, its fine to take the general stand of I’m all for unions no matter what because I believe in the little guy who will always be trampled by employers if it isn’t for the unions. That’s fine but you should have an open mind. In that light the main reason you have bad cops that continue working is protection form their union. If you have a way to change that -well-as the Brits say “carry on”.

    ===============

    Believe me, i know the dark side of any Human-Organization. Unions included.

    But there’s an even darker side to NOT having strong Unions. We are seeing that thanks to Reagan and the NeoLib-Dems.

    Like i said, i do not buy the argument that Unions can always block firing or charging Bad Cops. I just dont buy it.

    And civilian review boards can be legislated, I assume. Politicians can pass laws requiring it. The Unions wont like it, but if its the law, its the law.

    I believe there is a way to have strong Unions and still fire/charge people who Brutalize others.

    I’m not saying any of this is easy. I got no ‘easy’ solutions.

    w
    v

    #115744
    Avatar photoInvaderRam
    Moderator

    I believe there is a way to have strong Unions and still fire/charge people who Brutalize others.

    my guess is if you got rid of unions. management wouldn’t offer counseling to cops. they wouldn’t give them things like health insurance or retirement plans. they’d just burn them out and then recruit more cops. i fear that the brutality might actually get worse.

    #115755
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    I believe there is a way to have strong Unions and still fire/charge people who Brutalize others.

    my guess is if you got rid of unions. management wouldn’t offer counseling to cops. they wouldn’t give them things like health insurance or retirement plans. they’d just burn them out and then recruit more cops. i fear that the brutality might actually get worse.

    ===========

    I replied but the post got oblivion-ized. Just go to the search box and search “police strike”. The Boston Police strike. See what life is like without a police union.

    w
    v

    #115754
    Avatar photowv
    Participant

    I believe there is a way to have strong Unions and still fire/charge people who Brutalize others.

    my guess is if you got rid of unions. management wouldn’t offer counseling to cops. they wouldn’t give them things like health insurance or retirement plans. they’d just burn them out and then recruit more cops. i fear that the brutality might actually get worse.

    =================

    Well we already know what life looks like when Police Unions are prohibited.

    The Police Strike

    w
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    #115765
    Avatar photoZooey
    Moderator

    Now let me ask you this. You are home with your family and subject to a break in. You and your family are threatened with not just physical harm but possible death. You have a gun. (don’t dodge the Q by saying the hypo doesn’t apply because you don’t have a gun) Do you believe you have the right to be “judge, jury, and executioner” and do whatever is necessary to kill the intruder?. Now the odds are that likely will never happen to you. And you do not likely have a gun. But police see that every day.

    If I had a gun, I would train with it a lot until I was very good with it.

    And if I felt my family was lethally threatened, I would shoot the person. But I would shoot to incapacitate, not kill, if I could keep my cool, and I could get off a shot I liked rather than a desperation shot. If I killed the guy, at least I tried.

    None of which has anything to do with any of this because nobody is protesting THOSE KINDS OF POLICE KILLINGS. C’mon, Waterfield.

    #115766
    Avatar photoInvaderRam
    Moderator

    Well we already know what life looks like when Police Unions are prohibited.

    ima check it out tomorrow.

    If I had a gun, I would train with it a lot until I was very good with it.

    well right now i’m thinking maybe they need more training without a gun. like de-escalating a situation. communication. conflict resolution. meditation. i don’t know.

    #115768
    waterfield
    Participant

    Now let me ask you this. You are home with your family and subject to a break in. You and your family are threatened with not just physical harm but possible death. You have a gun. (don’t dodge the Q by saying the hypo doesn’t apply because you don’t have a gun) Do you believe you have the right to be “judge, jury, and executioner” and do whatever is necessary to kill the intruder?. Now the odds are that likely will never happen to you. And you do not likely have a gun. But police see that every day.

    If I had a gun, I would train with it a lot until I was very good with it.

    And if I felt my family was lethally threatened, I would shoot the person. But I would shoot to incapacitate, not kill, if I could keep my cool, and I could get off a shot I liked rather than a desperation shot. If I killed the guy, at least I tried.

    None of which has anything to do with any of this because nobody is protesting THOSE KINDS OF POLICE KILLINGS. C’mon, Waterfield.

    My point was to address your claim that cops should NEVER shoot to kill. I simply asked to put yourself in a similar position. Personally, I think that in the flash of a moment -i.e. being attacked-the idea of shooting to incapacitate is laudable but likely not very practical or even safe.

    #115770
    Avatar photoZooey
    Moderator

    My point was to address your claim that cops should NEVER shoot to kill. I simply asked to put yourself in a similar position. Personally, I think that in the flash of a moment -i.e. being attacked-the idea of shooting to incapacitate is laudable but likely not very practical or even safe.

    And I agree with that there could well be situations in which officers are justified in just trying to hit an assailant, or threat, in a high percentage shot. Splitting hairs, maybe, but that isn’t necessarily intent to kill. It’s intent to stop the assailant, and there isn’t time to micro-target the exact area. I get it.

    But nobody is protesting that, not even me. I think they should NEVER intend to kill, but I understand that they sometimes have to take shots where death is a good possibility.

    Still. The problem is cops take shots…and then delay calling for medical assistance. Or shoot people in the back running away. Or kneel on their necks. Or beat them to death in the back of paddy wagons. THAT is what people want to stop.

    #115769
    waterfield
    Participant

    and that’s not to say that there aren’t racist cops out there. shoot. this country is racist.

    the lady who called the cops on the bird watcher. the men who chased down ahmaud arbery and shot him dead for jogging.

    that’s the sad reality. racism is a societal issue – not just a law enforcement issue.

    ==================

    Civilian Review Boards. Made up of Community Members.

    The Police are PUBLIC servants. They should be accountable to US.

    w
    v

    I know you think unions are critical. Its in your gestalt. I’m pretty sure most followers of Karl Marx and his view of socialism are in the same camp. I know the contributions and protections that unions “in general” provide. But I’m not sure you recognize the dark side as well. You ask for civilian review board to address police misconduct. Can you actually foresee police unions agreeing to that? Can you imagine the police unions NOT fighting any legislative movement to provide for a civilian review board for misconduct? In the Floyd case the police union had to backtrack on early statements made in support of the accused officer. My wife was a school superintendent who fought the school employees union over the firing of the entire maintenance staff involved in pornography and the selling of guns and ammunition ON the school premises. They never gave up protecting the perverts and those illegally selling weapons within the district office on weekends. One “union member” lived in a trailer connected with the district’s electricity and for years -before Barb took over-had been using the district’s electricity. The union did everything in their power to try and get Barb fired and if it wasn’t for a strong Board of Ed. they might have succeeded. But when she worked late at night and on the weekends she was under the protection of police security. In the end the entire maintenance dept of a very large school district was terminated. Her professional and personal life was threatened and if it wasn’t for the courts restraining orders that were strictly enforced she may not have kept her job.

    Now you may have a general belief that since unions are there to protect workers from management but you may not know of the dark side. My wife who -after working in the aerospace industry-began teaching and worked up into various administrative positions and ultimately became a school superintendent. She HAS experienced what a vengeful union can do all in the name of protecting its members. She is also aware of the many totally incompetent teachers that cannot be removed from their position because of rights , including tenure, negotiated by teacher unions during bargaining negotiations. Keep in mind she WAS a teacher-albeit not a member of CTLA-and was nominated by the State of California as one of three best teachers in the State.

    So, its fine to take the general stand of I’m all for unions no matter what because I believe in the little guy who will always be trampled by employers if it isn’t for the unions. That’s fine but you should have an open mind. In that light the main reason you have bad cops that continue working is protection form their union. If you have a way to change that -well-as the Brits say “carry on”.

    ===============

    Believe me, i know the dark side of any Human-Organization. Unions included.

    But there’s an even darker side to NOT having strong Unions. We are seeing that thanks to Reagan and the NeoLib-Dems.

    Like i said, i do not buy the argument that Unions can always block firing or charging Bad Cops. I just dont buy it.

    And civilian review boards can be legislated, I assume. Politicians can pass laws requiring it. The Unions wont like it, but if its the law, its the law.

    I believe there is a way to have strong Unions and still fire/charge people who Brutalize others.

    I’m not saying any of this is easy. I got no ‘easy’ solutions.

    w
    v

    I think any civilian review board can only have the power to review facts and come to conclusions. I don’t believe they have the power to fire cops. The courts pursuant a consent decree can oversee certain changes that it deems needs to be made. But that would always be pursuant to a settlement. But they cannot make personnel decisions. If an officer is involved with criminal conduct then the only remedy is prosecution by the D.A. or the Feds if the conduct involves a Civil rights violation.

    Bottom line is we got a lot of bad cops still on the beat and the main reason rests with their unions. Sorry about that.

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