Epstein found dead (suicide?)

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  • #103851
    zn
    Moderator

    #103856
    nittany ram
    Moderator

    How does this happen? He was on suicide watch.

    I’m not going to rush to invoke a conspiracy, but that’s some high level indifference and/or incompetence by the correctional facility.

    #103859
    TSRF
    Participant

    Hmm… I wonder who is happy about this development?

    Dead perverts tell no tales, especially about living perverts.

    #103870
    wv
    Participant

    How does this happen? He was on suicide watch.

    I’m not going to rush to invoke a conspiracy, but that’s some high level indifference and/or incompetence by the correctional facility.

    =============

    Yeah, every person in wv I’ve talked to has called it murder. Nobody i know is buyin the suicide thing.

    I have no idea, myself. In WV there’s always cameras in the jails.

    w
    v

    #103871
    Mackeyser
    Moderator

    A) Called it. July 19th, though I think I had other posts even before

    B) Epstein was taken off suicide watch. After first “apparent suicide attempt” there was no rationale given.

    C) Apparently, the cameras in the unit were “broken”. So no video.

    D) People who’ve been in that Federal jail awaiting trial have posted that there are no bars or other ways to commit suicide like that. So, how he successfully committed “suicide” is raising a LOT of questions.

    E) Based on an anonymous reddit post by someone claiming to have worked in the jail at the time, a military vehicle entered the receiving area, Epstein was moved into a single person cell and then was removed. None of this was allowed to be logged.

    So, either Epstein was killed to protect his rich and powerful pedophile friends OR… he was spirited out by Trump… to protect his rich and powerful pedophile friends.

    I don’t know or really care which.

    I DO very much care that the victims get justice beyond a sealed and NDA protected confidential settlement with no admission of wrongdoing.

    I DO very much care that the perpetrators ALL are held criminally liable.

    I DO very much care that we need to aggressively dismantle this system which protects rich pedophiles 1000x times better than children at school.

    That’s all I could put together. That much grossness wore me out today and I just wanna play WoW and watch the Rams…

    • This reply was modified 5 years, 2 months ago by Mackeyser.

    Sports is the crucible of human virtue. The distillate remains are human vice.

    #103885
    joemad
    Participant

    #103954
    wv
    Participant
    #103955
    nittany ram
    Moderator

    Link: https://skepchick.org/2019/08/the-real-reason-epstein-died-is-a-lot-scarier-than-murder/

    When the news first broke yesterday that noted child rapist Jeffrey Epstein had died by suicide in jail, I went through a lot of emotions. It started with anger, knowing that he will never be held accountable for his crimes and his many victims will never be able to get closure. Soon my anger turned into worry that his death may end many of the investigations into his dealings and those of the people around him who enabled or even benefited from his crimes. Finally, I was filled with confusion over how this possibly could have happened. Supposedly Epstein was on suicide watch, so if precautions were being taken to prevent him from being able to die by suicide, how was able to succeed at it?

    Very soon after his death was announced I logged into Facebook and Twitter and saw many people alleging that Epstein was likely murdered. I’m not talking about right-wing conspiracy theorists like our own president who is alleging Epstein was killed by Hillary Clinton (though that happened as well), but progressive friends of mine. Most of these friends are not the type of people to usually buy into a conspiracy theory, but they pointed to the long list of powerful people who would want Epstein dead and explained how suspicious it was that Epstein would have been able to die by suicide while on suicide watch.

    After awhile, I started to believe too. When news later came out saying that he wasn’t actually on suicide watch, I wondered if maybe he had been purposefully taken off it in order to encourage him to die by suicide. If contradictory information is coming out of the jail, how do we even know their suicide claims are true at all? Maybe he was actually killed by a guard or inmate. Certainly the timing of his death seems convenient for many of his friends and confidants whose own crimes may have come out in the investigation against Epstein.

    Although I’ve been surprised to see people who usually don’t espouse conspiracy theories dabble in them in this case, myself included, I do think there is something in particular about Epstein that causes conspiracy theories to swirl around him. The fact is, Epstein is at the center of an honest-to-god real-life conspiracy. He truly was running a sex trafficking ring with some of the most powerful people in the world as his possible conspirators, many of whom have gone to great lengths to protect him. There are also still a lot of questions over where he was getting his money from, who his clients were, and what he was actually doing for them. There is even some evidence pointing to a potential blackmail scheme, suggesting he was taping his rich, powerful friends interactions with his underage sex slaves then blackmailing them into investing with his “hedge fund” that was actually just a index fund that he used to launder his blackmail money.

    With all this actual conspiracy going on, it doesn’t seem that much of a jump to go from what we already know or suspect about Epstein’s dealings and who it may have involved to murder. After all, jails are dangerous places where inmates do sometimes get murdered, even high-profile inmates. Not to mention that many of Epstein’s conspirators have already attempted and succeeded (at least for awhile) at coverup campaigns to hide Epstein’s crimes. Could these same conspirators have ordered Epstein’s death and now be covering it up by claiming it’s suicide? It’s certainly not impossible.

    Over at the New York Times, they are reporting that Epstein had been taken off of suicide watch. He was supposed to be sharing a cell with an inmate, but the inmate that had been housed with him had been transferred out. Additionally, Epstein was supposed to be checked on every 30 minutes, but the corrections officers that were working the night of his death were not checking in on him as they were supposed to. This all could point to a conspiracy if you are looking for one. Why was Epstein taken off suicide watch? Why was his cell-mate transferred? Why did the guards not check on him? Could someone have ordered all these things in order to either create conditions for Epstein to die by suicide or perhaps even to set up a situation where an assassin could have murdered him? As I said earlier, it’s not impossible.

    But, it is unlikely. The truth is that the Metropolitan Correction Center where Epstein was being held, like other federal jails, has suffered from decades of budget shortfalls and understaffing. The night that Epstein died, the two corrections officers that were on staff were both working overtime hours, and for one of the officers, it was his fifth night in a row working overtime. In terms of conditions at the jail, Slate writes that “in the Special Housing Unit where Epstein was held, the fluorescent lights are kept on 23 or 24 hours a day, prisoners are prohibited from calling out to each other, and the cell windows are frosted to prevent any glimpse of the outside world,” conditions that can often lead to mental illness and suicidal tendencies. They also point out that even though mental illness and suicide is extremely common in jails, at MCC there was only one psychiatrist on staff for both MCC and another local jail, a population of 2000 prisoners.

    In a way, I think I want to believe Epstein was murdered because it’s a tidy end to the story of Epstein. It’s easy to believe that Epstein, by dealing with experts at crimes and coverups, ended up as the victim of one of those crimes and coverups. I want to believe it was murder, but the truth is much scarier.

    The truth is that the MCC already had a reputation as an extremely dangerous place that was often mismanaged, creating situations that put their inmates at risk. Slate writes this about the MCC

    We know that MCC, the federal prison in Manhattan that also recently housed Joaquín “El Chapo” Guzmán, was deemed “worse than Guantanamo” by someone who spent time in both facilities. We know that cells are infested with bugs and rats so big they’re “more like roommates” and that the temperature swings from unbearable heat to frigid cold. We know that inmates have not received adequate medical care, that a corrections officers was found guilty of raping an inmate, and that officials allegedly tried to cover up the fatal beating of another prisoner.
    It seems likely that Epstein was taken off suicide watch early because suicide watch is expensive and they need to conserve their budget. It seems likely that the inmate who was staying with Epstein was transferred out because he needed to be moved and the jail didn’t have the resources or manpower to quickly find a replacement cellmate. It seems likely that the corrections officers who were working the night of Epstein’s death were not checking on him every 30 minutes because they were overworked and tired and likely had many other inmates to check-in on every 30 minutes, along with a lot of other work to do, so doing those bi-hourly checks just fell by the wayside.

    We don’t need a vast conspiracy among powerful people to explain why Epstein died. We already have the information we need to know what happened, but we don’t want to face it because it means we might have to do something about it. Epstein likely died due to suicide in a jail that didn’t have the budget or wherewithal to be able to fully protect him and provide him with mental health resources when he showed suicidal tendencies. He died because federal jails in the US are terrifying hell-holes with conditions that exacerbate mental illness then do not provide inmates the medical care they need to manage their conditions. It’s not a conspiracy so much as a total lack of regard from politicians and the taxpaying public who vote for them.

    Epstein is never going to be held accountable for his crimes. His victims will never be able to face him in court. If you care about that, the answer is not to speculate about the latest conspiracies but pick up the phone and call your representatives and ask them for the funding to change the conditions for inmates in federal jails.

    Post

    #103959
    wv
    Participant

    “…Could these same conspirators have ordered Epstein’s death and now be covering it up by claiming it’s suicide? It’s certainly not impossible… Could someone have ordered all these things in order to either create conditions for Epstein to die by suicide or perhaps even to set up a situation where an assassin could have murdered him? As I said earlier, it’s not impossible.
    But, it is unlikely…”
    ————–

    My take is different. I think she’s minimizing the ‘possibility’ quotient. Murder in this case is more than just “not impossible” in my view. And i dont think murder is “unlikely.” My own view is, its a completely open question. Just as likely that he was murdered (or coerced) as it is that he simply killed himself.

    So for me its just an open question.

    I doubt if the mystery is ever resolved.

    w
    v

    #103964
    nittany ram
    Moderator

    My take is different. I think she’s minimizing the ‘possibility’ quotient. Murder in this case is more than just “not impossible” in my view. And i dont think murder is “unlikely.” My own view is, its a completely open question. Just as likely that he was murdered (or coerced) as it is that he simply killed himself.

    So for me its just an open question.

    I doubt if the mystery is ever resolved.

    w
    v

    I agree.

    I think she is trying to say that suicide is the most parsimonious explanation based on what is known. Epstein had already tried to commit suicide once before while he was there. The place is a hell-hole and has been for years. It’s underfunded, understaffed, the guards are over-worked and underpaid…that scenario will always lead to huge, seemingly unbelievable mistakes like failing to follow suicide watch protocols or whatever. Given that there is no evidence of a murder (just a bunch of circumstantial head-scratching stuff), I tend to agree that suicide is the simplest answer that fits the facts.

    However, it’s not a home run by any means. She’s a little dismissive.

    But barring a confession, it’s the most likely (by a smidge) explanation.

    #103965
    wv
    Participant

    I cant help think of what people like her what have said if Martin Luther King had killed himself. You know the story — Hoover and his FBI yes-men wanted King-the-Commie off the National stage, so they tried to blackmail him into committing ‘suicide.’

    If he had killed himself, so many people would have said, “nothing to see here, just a suicide. Its the simplest explanation.”

    Sometimes I get-ta-thinkin that some folks are so fed up with the never-ending, distracting, stupid-wacko-conspiracies, that they forget that there ARE plenty of real-conspiracies out there in human-being-land.

    Again, my mantra — its hard to know who/what to trust anymore.

    Can we trust that there will be a complete, thorough ‘investigation’ of this? Well how will we know if a thorough investigation will be undertaken? How would we ever know? It kinda comes down to how much you trust the institutions of America nowadays.

    And again, i have no idea what happened.

    w
    v

    • This reply was modified 5 years, 1 month ago by wv.
    #103974
    nittany ram
    Moderator

    4chan user posted about Epstein’s death 40 minutes before it was reported in the media.

    Link: https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-08-13/epsteins-death-first-reported-4chan-anon-claimed-hanging-cardiac-arrest

    Most likely one of the first responders on the scene.

    #103992
    joemad
    Participant
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