Barr v. Mueller

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  • #100066
    zn
    Moderator

    In Context: Comparing Bill Barr’s summary of Mueller’s findings to the publicly released report

    https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2019/apr/18/context-comparing-bill-barrs-summary-mueller-repor/?fbclid=IwAR1oAkDtUycCDPMNCV1oJtVVKxGbQ4kT4pkGUc4FtNZH_1U31EMI08yyEpY

    U.S. Attorney General Bill Barr issued a four-page summary of Special Counsel Robert Mueller’s key findings nearly a month before publicly releasing an estimated 400-page redacted version of Mueller’s report.

    Barr’s March 24 summary outlined what he called Mueller’s “principal conclusions” on the investigation of Russia’s interference in the 2016 presidential election, whether the Trump campaign conspired in those efforts and if President Donald Trump obstructed justice.

    Barr’s summary included a few direct quotes from Mueller’s report that were enough to prompt Trump to claim “complete vindication,” and for Democrats to demand a quick release of the full report.

    Now that the report is public, here’s broader context surrounding the quotes that Barr included in his summary. Worth noting: The report said “a statement that the investigation did not establish particular facts does not mean there was no evidence of those facts.” In other words, available evidence was not enough to make a conclusion, and Mueller is not claiming to have exhausted every possible line of investigation.

    ON COLLUSION
    Barr’s summary: As the report states: “the investigation did not establish that members of the Trump Campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in its election interference activities.”

    Barr’s summary left out that Mueller’s report said it identified “numerous links” between Trump’s campaign and Russia, and that the campaign expected to benefit from Russia’s efforts. Here’s what precedes the quote that Barr included in his summary.

    Mueller’s report: “The investigation also identified numerous links between the Russian government and the Trump Campaign. Although the investigation established that the Russian government perceived it would benefit from a Trump presidency and worked to secure that outcome, and that the Campaign expected it would benefit electorally from information stolen and released through Russian efforts, the investigation did not establish that members of the Trump Campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in its election interference activities.”

    ON OBSTRUCTION
    Barr’s summary: “Instead, for each of the relevant actions investigated, the report sets out evidence on both sides of the question and leaves unresolved what the Special Counsel views as ‘difficult issues’ of law and fact concerning whether the President’s actions and intent could be viewed as obstruction. The Special Counsel states that ‘while this report does not conclude that the President committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him’. ”

    Mueller’s report: The “difficult issues” and the verbiage about not exonerating Trump appear at least three times in the report. The first time they appear is in the introduction to the volume that discusses the obstruction of justice investigation. They are later repeated under “conclusion” subheads.

    Additional context to the quote affirms that Mueller did not definitely conclude that Trump did not obstruct justice.

    The report states: “Fourth, if we had confidence after a thorough investigation of the facts that the President clearly did not commit obstruction of justice, we would so state. Based on the facts and the applicable legal standards, however, we are unable to reach that judgment. The evidence we obtained about the President’s actions and intent presents difficult issues that prevent us from conclusively determining that no criminal conduct occurred. Accordingly, while this report does not conclude that the President committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him.”

    The other two times “difficult issues” and the fuller quote appear is in conclusion subheads that both say:

    “Because we determined not to make a traditional prosecutorial judgment, we did not draw ultimate conclusions about the President’s conduct. The evidence we obtained about the President’s actions and intent presents difficult issues that would need to be resolved if we were making a traditional prosecutorial judgment. At the same time, if we had confidence after a thorough investigation of the facts that the President clearly did not commit obstruction of justice, we would so state. Based on the facts and the applicable legal standards, we are unable to reach that judgment. Accordingly, while this report does not conclude that the President committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him.”

    Barr’s summary: Barr’s letter is terse in suggesting the president did not obstruct justice: “In making this determination, we noted that the Special Counsel recognized that ‘the evidence does not establish that the President was involved in an underlying crime related to Russian election interference,’ and that, while not determinative, the absence of such evidence bears upon the President’s intent with respect to obstruction.”

    Mueller’s report: Mueller’s report suggests other motives for the president’s conduct, including fear of investigation: “In this investigation, the evidence does not establish that the President was involved in an underlying crime related to Russian election interference. But the evidence does point to a range of other possible personal motives animating the President’s conduct. These include concerns that continued investigation would call into question the legitimacy of his election and potential uncertainty about whether certain events—such as advance notice of WikiLeaks’s release of hacked information or the June 9, 2016 meeting between senior campaign officials and Russians—could be seen as criminal activity by the President, his campaign, or his family.”

    #100067
    zn
    Moderator

    How William Barr misled the public about Mueller’s decision not to charge Trump
    Deceit wrapped in rank partisanship.

    link: https://thinkprogress.org/how-attorney-general-william-barr-misled-the-american-people-about-muellers-decision-not-to-charge-trump-0c7de3d1c894/

    From the moment news broke that special counsel Robert Mueller completed his report on the Russian government’s efforts to boost President Donald Trump’s 2016 campaign, Attorney General William Barr appeared determined to protect Trump from political fallout — and to mislead reporters and the American people about what Mueller’s report said and whether Mueller suggested that Trump violated the law.

    In his summary of Mueller’s report, and in subsequent statements to the press, Barr made carefully worded statements that conveyed a misleading impression that Mueller concluded that Trump’s actions were not criminal. The reality is much more complicated.

    Mueller leaned heavily on a longstanding Justice Department policy against indicting a sitting president in his decision not to charge Trump. Mueller also strongly implies in his report that impeachment and removal from office may be the appropriate sanction for Trump’s actions.

    The report is divided into two volumes. The first largely concerns his investigation into Russia’s efforts to impact the election and lays out why he decided to charge specific individuals with crimes. The second volume primarily concerns Trump’s efforts to thwart an investigation into Russia’s efforts to bolster Trump’s campaign. It also explains why Mueller ultimately decided not to charge Trump.

    In his letter summarizing the report, Barr states that he and Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein concluded that the evidence compiled by Mueller “is not sufficient to establish that the President committed an obstruction-of-justice offense,” and that this determination was made “without regard to . . . the constitutional considerations that surround the indictment and criminal prosecution of a sitting president.” A pair of memos by the Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel (OLC), which lays out the basis for the policy against charging a sitting president, claims that doing so would be unconstitutional.

    At a press conference on Thursday morning, Barr further downplayed the role of the OLC memos in Mueller’s decision not to charge Trump. “We specifically asked him about the OLC opinion and whether or not he was taking a position that he would have found a crime but for the existence of the OLC opinion,” Barr told the press, claiming that Mueller “was not saying that but for the OLC opinion, he would have found a crime. He made it clear that he had not made the determination that there was a crime.”

    On the contrary, Mueller’s report explicitly states that the OLC’s opinions played a significant role in his decision not to charge Trump. Mueller opens the second volume of a report with a list of four “considerations that guided our obstruction-of-justice investigation.” Here is the first:

    [A] traditional prosecution or declination decision entails a binary determination to initiate or decline a prosecution, but we determined not to make a traditional prosecutorial judgment. The Office of Legal Counsel (OLC) has issued an opinion finding that “the indictment or criminal prosecution of a sitting President would impermissibly undermine the capacity of the executive branch to perform its constitutionally assigned functions” in violation of “the constitutional separation of powers.” Given the role of the Special Counsel as an attorney in the Department of Justice and the framework of the Special Counsel regulations, this Office accepted OLC’s legal conclusion for the purpose of exercising prosecutorial jurisdiction. And apart from OLC’s constitutional view, we recognized that a federal criminal accusation against a sitting President would place burdens on the President’s capacity to govern and potentially preempt constitutional processes for addressing presidential misconduct.

    Two parts of this statement (bolded above) are worth emphasizing. The first is Mueller’s explicit statement that, as a Justice Department attorney, he believed he was bound by OLC’s conclusion that an indictment of a sitting president is unconstitutional.

    The second is Mueller’s somewhat cryptic reference to “constitutional processes for addressing presidential misconduct.” The primary process that the Constitution contemplates for dealing with a criminal president is impeachment, conviction, and removal from office by the Congress. Thus, Mueller appears to be suggesting that, in addition to believing that he lacked authority to charge a sitting president, such an indictment could interfere with a Congressional investigation into Trump’s actions, and into possible impeachment proceedings.

    Mueller, moreover, is quite explicit about the fact that he did not conclude that Trump is innocent. “If we had confidence after a thorough investigation of the facts that the President clearly did not commit obstruction of justice, we would so state,” the special counsel writes. “Based on the facts and the applicable legal standards, however, we are unable to reach that judgment.”

    In a painful irony, Mueller also explains that he decided not to charge Trump due to the very same fairness concerns that should have kept Trump from becoming president in the first place. “Fairness concerns counseled against” concluding that Trump committed a crime, “when no charges can be brought.”

    That’s because “the ordinary means for an individual to respond to an accusation is through a speedy and public trial, with all the procedural protections that surround a criminal case.” Yet, because Trump is immune from prosecution under DOJ policy while he remains president, Trump may not “use that process to seek to clear his name.” Thus, to accuse Trump of a crime without bringing him to trial would have the effect of punishing him without affording him due process, because the mere allegation against a sitting president would carry political consequences.

    The same concerns counseled against former FBI Director James Comey’s decision to publicly impugn Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton’s character during the 2016 election. As I wrote at the time,

    The Justice Department’s longstanding policy of not disclosing information that could influence an election is very much an extension of our constitutional structure. The Constitution imposes escalating burdens of proof on the government in order to prevent the state from bringing its force to bear against someone who has not be shown to be guilty of any crime. And the Justice Department’s policy serves this same goal.

    As [former Deputy Attorneys General Jamie] Gorelick and [Larry] Thompson explain, DOJ policy exists to “avoid misuse of prosecutorial power by creating unfair innuendo to which an accused party cannot properly respond.” The New Yorker’s Jane Meyer quotes an unnamed former senior Justice Department official making a similar point. A disclosure like the one Comey made on Friday “impugns the integrity and reputation of the candidate, even though there’s no finding by a court, or in this instance even an indictment.”

    Had Comey showed the same integrity — and the same respect for our constitutional structure — that Mueller showed in his report, it is likely that Hillary Clinton would have won the 2016 election and Russia’s efforts to shape that election would have failed.

    #100069
    zn
    Moderator

    The Mueller report is definitive: Russia meddled in the election to help Trump win
    The 448-page report clears up any doubt that Russian efforts had one goal in mind: electing Trump.

    link: https://thinkprogress.org/the-mueller-report-is-definitive-russia-meddled-in-the-election-to-help-trump-win-a554ec6a3f4a/

    On Thursday, the release of special counsel Robert Mueller’s report removed any remaining doubt that Russia’s interference campaign was designed to help elect Donald Trump and keep Hillary Clinton out of the White House.

    While some parts of the report are still redacted, the investigation uncovered some especially damning details on how Russia’s social media interference operations attempted to push Trump to the presidency. The report went into granular detail about how Russian hackers stole and disseminated Democratic party emails, which were released at the perfect time to help boost the Trump campaign.

    The special counsel in its report wrote about Russia’s Internet Research Agency (IRA) that “[t]hroughout 2016, IRA accounts published an increasing number of materials supporting the Trump Campaign and opposing the Clinton Campaign.” In one section, describing the IRA’s methodologies, Mueller’s report found that by early 2016 the group had focused on “supporting the Trump Campaign and disparaging candidate Hillary Clinton.”

    Later on, the Mueller report identified specific internal IRA emails to back up the investigators’ findings. One, from February 2016, “referred to support for the Trump Campaign and opposition to candidate Clinton.” While some of the details remain redacted, one related passage reads that the IRA should “se any opportunity to criticize Hillary [Clinton] and the rest (except [Bernie] Sanders and Trump — we support them).” Mueller’s team even found that the IRA had been disparaging Clinton even prior to her presidential campaign, focusing on “Clinton’s record as Secretary of State and… various critiques of her candidacy.”

    When some of the fake Russian social media accounts proved insufficiently anti-Clinton, they were reprimanded by their higher-ups. An internal IRA review found that one notorious fake Russian Facebook page, “Secured Borders,” had not posted enough anti-Clinton material. The author of the review, according to Mueller’s report, “criticized the ‘lower number of posts dedicated to criticizing Hillary Clinton’ and reminded the [IRA’s] Facebook specialist ‘it is imperative to intensify criticizing Hillary Clinton.’”

    And it wasn’t just posts, but ads as well. Mueller’s team found that “IRA-purchased [Facebook] advertisements featuring Clinton were, with very few exceptions, negative.”

    The Mueller report even identified multiple connections between the IRA and the Trump campaign, including when members of the Trump campaign — and even Trump himself, as ThinkProgress was the first to report — retweeted fake Russian accounts. However, Mueller’s investigation “identified no similar connections between the IRA and the Clinton Campaign.”

    The hacking campaigns, of course, explicitly targeted Clinton’s campaign. One of the sections in Mueller’s report is explicitly titled “GRU Hacking Directed at the Clinton Campaign,” noting the Russian military intelligence agency behind the hacking campaign. While much of the information parallels details put forth in prior indictments against the Russians responsible, the Mueller report specifically notes that the GRU “hacked the computers and email accounts of organizations, employees, and volunteers supporting the Clinton Campaign” — including targeting “hundreds of email accounts used by Clinton Campaign employees, advisors, and volunteers.”

    “The release of the documents was designed and timed to interfere with the 2016 U.S. presidential election and undermine the Clinton Campaign,” the report notes.

    And in regards to timing, Mueller’s report found that Russian hackers specifically targeted new individuals linked to the Clinton campaign almost immediately after Trump in July 2016 called for Russia to “find the 30,000 [Clinton] emails that are missing.” As the Mueller report read, “Within approximately five hours of Trump’s statement, GRU officers targeted for the first time Clinton’s personal office…. The investigation did not find evidence of earlier GRU attempts to compromise accounts hosted on this [Clinton-related] domain. It is unclear how the GRU was able to identify these email accounts, which were not public.”

    The entire report puts to bed to the notion that those behind Russia’s interference efforts — both on the social media front and those responsible for hacking — targeted both the Trump and Clinton campaigns equally, or that they were interested solely in sowing division for the sake of spreading chaos. As Mueller’s report makes clear, the social media operators and officials behind the hacking and dissemination, especially in 2016, did so with one goal in mind: electing Trump, and preventing Clinton from reaching the White House.

    In that regard, they considered their efforts to have been successful. As the report highlighted, the day after Trump’s victory a redacted source wrote to one of the Russian officials involved in outreach to the incoming Trump administration.

    Wrote the redacted source, “Putin has won.”

    #100072
    zn
    Moderator

    The Mueller report: What you need to know

    https://www.ratemyjob.com/humor/2469363/people-share-the-satisfying-ways-theyve-gotten-back-at-an-awful-boss?utm_campaign=rmj-kwy-d-us-96f10f0a&utm_content=2046&utm_source=kwy&utm_term=rmj-kwy-d-us-96f10f0a.7xq0ua94&kwp_0=1198795&kwp_4=3825762&kwp_1=1595419&fbclid=IwAR18RXSxyH6qGQje5CbHPylVC_VB9RArBagBzC8IkUFWEqpph7rOwNSmR7c

    Special Counsel Robert Mueller’s highly anticipated report presents a sweeping narrative of Russia’s 2016 election interference and clears the Trump campaign of criminally conspiring with the Kremlin. It also details the president’s efforts to curtail the nearly two-year probe, though Mueller declined to say whether or not Trump’s conduct amounted to illegal obstruction.

    The report reaffirms the intelligence community’s conclusion that Russia favored Trump over Hillary Clinton, and notes that the Trump campaign believed it would benefit on Election Day from Moscow’s interference.

    But Mueller found the Kremlin’s acts on Trump’s behalf and numerous contacts between the campaign and Russia didn’t rise to the level of criminal conspiracy or coordination. These contacts comprise the report’s first volume, which is heavily redacted in some sections, mostly owing to its use of material that relates to cases still being pursued by other prosecutors.

    In the report’s second volume, Mueller’s team documented 10 instances of Trump trying to impede the investigation or directing his staff to do so (including firing Mueller). Ultimately, Mueller chose not to say whether Trump did or did not obstruct justice.

    Mueller: There were numerous contacts, but no criminal conspiracy between Trump campaign and Russia
    Mueller found the Trump campaign did not engage in a criminal conspiracy or illegal coordination with Russia.

    The special counsel’s decision not to charge Trump with conspiracy came despite what Mueller described as a series of “salient moments” over the 2016 election season and presidential transition — which will be familiar to those who have followed the investigation.

    Mueller confirmed that the triggering event for the FBI opening a counterintelligence investigation into links between the Trump campaign and the Russian government came as a result of an April 2016 meeting between campaign adviser George Papadopoulos and a source who said Russian government officials could offer “dirt” on Clinton in the form of “thousands of emails.”

    The report also recounts the June 9, 2016, meeting at Trump Tower that Donald Trump Jr. arranged based on a promise that a “Russian government attorney” would supply the campaign with incriminating evidence against Clinton as part of the Kremlin’s support for his father’s candidacy.

    Mueller also notes that Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort shared internal polling data with his long-time business associate Konstantin Kilimnik, who the FBI has linked to Russian intelligence, and discussed with Kilimnik the campaign’s strategy for winning over Democratic voters in the Midwest.

    At least some of these contacts occurred while Trump pursued Trump Tower Moscow deal and publicly espoused pro-Russian policies.

    Nonetheless, Mueller found the series of links and alignment of interests did not amount to a criminal conspiracy or illegal coordination.

    “Although the investigation established that the Russian government perceived it would benefit from a Trump presidency and worked to secure that outcome, and that the campaign expected it would benefit electorally from information stolen and released through Russian efforts,” Mueller’s report states, “the investigation did not establish that members of the Trump campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in its election interference activities.”

    Mueller did not reach a conclusion about whether Trump obstructed

    Mueller declined to say if Trump had obstructed justice. Attorney General Barr and the deputy attorney general concluded Trump had not.

    The special counsel explained that the unusual circumstances surrounding the probe made it difficult to issue a traditional binary judgment about whether to indict. But Mueller’s reluctance to reach a prosecutorial conclusion should not be interpreted as an exoneration of the president on the issue of obstruction, he said.

    “The evidence we obtained about the president’s actions and intent presents difficult issues that prevent us from conclusively determining that no criminal conduct occurred,” Mueller said. “Accordingly, while this report does not conclude that the President committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him.”

    After Mueller declined to reach a conclusion about obstruction, Barr stepped in.

    In a move that left legal experts divided, Barr reasoned that Mueller’s silence “leaves it to the attorney general to determine” if Trump obstructed justice. Barr and Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein concluded the president had not done so.

    Trump’s efforts to curtail the investigation

    Though Trump will not be charged with obstruction of justice during his presidency, Mueller’s report paints a searing portrait of Trump’s attempts to hamper investigators.

    Mueller lists some 10 “key issues and events” that his team examined as part of its obstruction investigation. Some of the events had been previously reported in the press, while other conduct has been made public for the first time through Mueller’s report.

    The special counsel’s team probed events that James Comey has testified about before Congress, including Trump’s request to then-FBI Director Comey that he drop the investigation into Trump’s embattled former national security adviser Michael Flynn, who has since pled guilty to lying to the FBI.

    Mueller also investigated other highly publicized events, like Trump’s firing of Comey, and the president’s involvement in crafting a misleading statement on his son’s behalf regarding the June 2016 Trump Tower meeting.

    But the report also provides a window into Trump’s distress over the news that a special counsel had been appointed in the wake of Comey’s firing.

    “Oh my God. This is terrible,” the report quotes Trump as saying. “This is the end of my presidency. I’m f—–.”

    Trump grew more alarmed following media reports that the special counsel’s office would look into whether Trump obstructed justice, according to the report.

    It describes a frantic Trump calling then-White House counsel Don McGahn at home and ordering him to say Mueller should be removed due to conflicts of interest. McGahn refused.

    “The president’s efforts to influence the investigation were mostly unsuccessful,” the Mueller report notes, “but that is largely because the persons who surrounded the president declined to carry out orders or accede to his requests.”

    #101040
    zn
    Moderator

    House moves to hold William Barr in contempt of Congress
    The House Judiciary Committee scheduled a Wednesday vote on the matter.

    link: https://thinkprogress.org/house-moves-to-hold-william-barr-in-contempt-of-congress-ac93d2ae0834/

    On Monday the House Judiciary Committee announced that it would be holding a vote in two days to hold Attorney General William Barr in contempt of Congress.

    The announcement comes as Barr’s Justice Department continues to refuse to release the un-redacted version of the Mueller report, despite a congressional subpoena demanding the full report.

    Last week, Barr refused to testify in front of the committee about his handling of former special counsel Robert Mueller’s report on Russian interference in the 2016 campaign, as well as President Donald Trump’s efforts to obstruct the investigation. Barr did testify in front of the Senate Judiciary Committee last week, but that hearing was also fraught with Barr’s confusing defenses of Trump’s attempts to obstruct justice.

    Rep. Jerrold Nadler (D-NY) announced on Monday that the vote will center on Barr’s “failure to comply” with the demands to release the full Mueller report. As the citation reads, “Barr failed to comply with the committee’s request for these documents and thereby has hindered the committee’s constitutional, oversight, and legislative functions.”


    Monday’s announcement wasn’t necessarily a surprise: Nadler had previously given Barr until Monday to comply with subpoena request.

    Following Wednesday’s committee vote, the measure holding Barr in contempt will move to the full House of Representatives, where a vote would likely be held before the end of the month. The vote is expected to move along largely partisan lines.

    House Republicans have already come out against the effort to hold Barr in contempt. Rep. Doug Collins (R-GA), the ranking minority member on the House Judiciary Committee, called the move a “proxy war smearing the attorney general.”

    While the announcement of an impending vote on Barr was widely expected, it nonetheless presents a significant escalation of congressional Democrats’ efforts to hold the White House to account for both the Trump campaign’s actions in 2016 and its ongoing efforts to stifle Mueller’s findings.

    If the vote goes through as planned, it will be only the second time in American history that Congress has held a sitting member of the presidential cabinet in contempt. The first came in 2012, when a GOP-led House held then-Attorney General Eric Holder in contempt for his failure to comply with the so-called “Fast and Furious scandal.”

    But as with that 2012 citation of contempt — and other moves to hold those close to the president in contempt, as we saw in 2007 with then-White House counsel Harriet Miers — the effort to hold Barr in contempt will be largely symbolic.

    Any attempts to enforce holding Barr in contempt will be difficult. The House sergeant-at-arms will almost certainly not physically detain Barr, and any court proceedings will either have to move through offices Barr oversees, and they could drag on for years. A contempt ruling expires when the current Congress’ term does. House Democrats have discussed potentially fining Barr directly for his failure to comply with congressional subpoena, but there are no firm plans for that route as of ye

    #101047
    wv
    Participant

    “….went into granular detail about how Russian hackers stole and disseminated Democratic party emails, which were released at the perfect time to help boost the Trump campaign.”
    ————-

    Well, I am conflicted on this. I like reading the truth about the Democratic Party. So, on the one hand, I appreciate ANY group shedding light on what the Corporate-profit-over-people-Dems are up to. Its a public service. The russians should get a medal.

    On the other hand, sure, they preferred one Corporate-weasel (Trump) over the other more-anti-russian-corporate-weasel. So, yes they were playing favorites.

    I will refrain from my mantra about how small this ‘interference’ was compared to all the mega-interferences the US is responsible for….blah blah blah.

    Just my opinion.

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    #101053
    Billy_T
    Participant

    “….went into granular detail about how Russian hackers stole and disseminated Democratic party emails, which were released at the perfect time to help boost the Trump campaign.”
    ————-

    Well, I am conflicted on this. I like reading the truth about the Democratic Party. So, on the one hand, I appreciate ANY group shedding light on what the Corporate-profit-over-people-Dems are up to. Its a public service. The russians should get a medal.

    On the other hand, sure, they preferred one Corporate-weasel (Trump) over the other more-anti-russian-corporate-weasel. So, yes they were playing favorites.

    I will refrain from my mantra about how small this ‘interference’ was compared to all the mega-interferences the US is responsible for….blah blah blah.

    Just my opinion.

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    There is a kind of trap just waiting there, if we think “None of this matters, because we did it too.” The obvious “fair” way to see that has a flipside. As in, if it doesn’t matter, it doesn’t matter that the US engaged or engages in Game of Thrones stuff around the world, either.

    For me, if it’s wrong for us, it’s wrong for the rest of the world too. That’s how I see it. And, when it comes to cyber attacks, Russia is a lot better at it and far more aggressive than we are. They can’t match us economically or militarily — other than nukes — but they can best us via cybersecurity issues.

    Two empires fighting, undermining each other, trying to sow disunity. It’s all wrong. Which leads me to this:

    That empires will go after each other is a given: What’s not a given is complicity with those empires domestically. This is why, to me, it matters what Trump and his campaign did and still does. It actually matters to me far more than the original Russian attacks. I think the investigation into Trump’s actions is valid, necessary and has yielded damning information, which would have put anyone else in jail.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/trump-would-have-been-charged-with-obstruction-were-he-not-president-hundreds-of-former-federal-prosecutors-assert/2019/05/06/e4946a1a-7006-11e9-9f06-5fc2ee80027a_story.html?utm_term=.99477639ac59

    The number signing on to this view has now apparently reached 600. Well over 500 prosecutors say the Mueller Report provides the evidence to convict anyone else for obstruction. Trump survives because of the DoJ rule that he can’t be indicted.

    #101054
    Billy_T
    Participant

    Boiled down, I’m far more angered by Trump and all the people defending him, protecting him, lying for him, than I am at what Russia has done.

    Again, I expect the latter. It’s a part of geopolitics. It’s always going to be part of it. But that an American running for office asked for Russian help, received it, exploited it, endlessly lied about it, covered it up, and obstructed investigations into his wrong-doing . . . . that’s not the usual blah blah blah of geopolitical chess. That’s something that, as far as we know, has never happened here before.

    Trump and company should be held accountable for this.

    #101784
    zn
    Moderator

    #101800
    wv
    Participant

    <b
    There is a kind of trap just waiting there, if we think “None of this matters, because we did it too.” .

    ============

    Well, i dont know of anyone who has ever once argued “none of this matters, because we did it too.”

    My ‘own’ view is much more dark than that 🙂

    My own view, is none of this matters because the USA is now a Plutocracy-Oligarchy-Corporotacracy-Imperialist-Military-PostIndustrial-DeepState-BIOSPHERE-KILLING-System. And this ‘system’ has now ‘dummed-down,’ mislead, propagandized, distracted, entertained, factionalized, a great deal of the electorate. It has also nourished, fostered, spawned, all kinds of detestable pro-corporate, fuck-the-poor values and habits in a great deal of the American electorate.

    And THAT is why i think ‘none of this matters’. Not because “we did it too.” 🙂

    I dont think it can be turned around.

    And I’m the one who thinks Bernie is the next Prez. Wont matter though. Big picture is now too ugly.

    Just my opinion, hope I’m wrong, I probly am wrong, Go Rams.

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