education

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  • #64944
    wv
    Participant

    Stick with this till the 5:25 mark. There’s a funny joke:

    #64947
    wv
    Participant

    …here’s a quote zn, would agree with, i bet. Dunno about Billy though.

    “…In Democracy and Education in the famous chapter on the democratic conception of education, Dewey starts out from the position that the project of human development is not a matter of setting up some conception of an ideal society, but of crafting the future out of what we are now capable of doing and envisioning. ”
    link:http://docs.lib.purdue.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1287&context=eandc

    w
    v
    What then, in the views of Morris and Dewey, is education in the utopian
    grain?
    Before taking up this question, let us first allow Morris and Dewey to state their objections to capitalist education. In the 1880s, Morris arrived at a version of what contemporary educational sociologists have commonly called the correspondence principle. Dewey had done the same by the early 1900s.
    In brief, the principle states that there is a determinant link between the social relations of production and the social relations of education. Education develops forms of social-class identification and values which adjust the learner to work relations and the wider structures and
    cultural milieu of class society. Applied to capitalism, the principle has been taken as the foundation of a radical critique of education and it points to the necessity of a classless society if education is to be of, by and for everyone.9

    As Morris states it:At present all education is directed towards the end of fitting people to take their places in the hierarchy of commerce—these as masters, those as William Morris and John Dewey: Imagining Utopian Education
    workmen. The education of the masters is more ornamental than that of
    the workmen, but it is commercial still; and even at the ancient universi
    ties learning is but little regarded, unless it can in the long run be made to
    pay. Due education is a totally different thing from this, and concerns itself
    in finding out what different people are fit for, and helping them along the
    road which they are inclined to take.

    People are “educated” to become workmen or the employers of workmen,
    or the hangers-on of the employers; they are not educated to become
    men With this aim in view, the conditions under which true education can go
    on are impossible. For the first and most necessary of them are leisure and
    deliberation; and leisure is a thing which the modern slaveholder will by no
    means grant to his slave as long as he grants him rations; when the leisure
    begins the rations end. Constant toil is the only terms on which they are
    to be had. Capitalism will not allow us the leisure, either for education or
    the use of it. Slave labor and true education are irreconcilable foes, for the
    latter means the continuous and duly balanced development of our faculties, whether in the school, the workshop, or the field.11Clearly, Morris thinks that education in capitalist society does not, and can-not, constitute true or liberal education. This impossibility in…see link

    • This reply was modified 7 years, 2 months ago by wv.
    #65016
    Mackeyser
    Moderator

    Damn, that whole video was so good.

    I’m in a quandary with this and the public education debate.

    I TOTALLY support public education. I’m not in principle a huge supporter of charter schools. And yet, all four of my kids went to one, Manatee School for the Arts.

    My eldest son is high functioning autistic, my youngest son is asexual and my youngest is non-binary trans.

    Neither the highly rated public middle school or high school in Culver City, CA or the HS here were willing to see my son as a student. He was a “special ed” student (more money), but not in that he actually got more attention or services or help. No, he got dumped in day classes with students with everything from retardation to Downs to severe emotional and physical needs. And no one teacher and TA could possibly keep up with that class. Worse, the administrations at both schools lied to us telling us that he was on track to get an actual diploma when he was actually set to get an “attendance certificate”.

    Because of being dumped in day classes, he had to repeat a year, but he graduated with a regular HS diploma, he is a BJJ Youth coach and had his blue belt from RMNU BJJ (that’s a big deal…if you don’t know the BJJ world…it’s a big deal. That a high functioning autistic person is doing high level grappling? That’s like someone with a fear of heights graduating from the Wallenda School of High Wire Walking). He wasn’t always capable of moving with and even past the limitations of his autism, but none of the public schools saw him as anything other than a problem. And while they were happy to take the money the states gave them for his needs, they were gonna be damned if they spent it on him.

    Public school was failing my kids. All of them. This school was the alternative school where they thrived. This county has like 4-5 HS and they are all modeled the same as opposed to having a Science HS, Performing Arts HS, General HS, VoTech HS, etc that could incorporate some of what the speaker was talking about. I realize that the segmentation is part of his critique. I get that, but it’d be at least an interim step to address the integrity of the content.

    As well, we spent 17 years talking to schools about how since the end of WWII, people have been getting doctorates in Ed, coming up with new ideas on how to educate or reforms or all manner of improvements to education. How much of that do we see actually make it to improving our children’s education in 2017? Almost none.

    At MSA, the start time is 9:40. That’s almost TWO HOURS later than the city High Schools. As a school devoted to the arts, the whole point of the school is inclusivity and collaboration. There is even encouragement for interdisciplinary expression and for the acknowledgment of the different modalities of learning.

    Seriously, try getting THAT in almost any public school.

    So…I’m in a quandary.

    I believe deeply in public school. That said, I know that my kids were saved by one of the few secular, successful, public, arts focused charter schools that specifically leverage the available data (like the much later start times and block scheduling) that this charter school provided and the public schools my kids first attended outright refused to provide.

    Moreover, in most instances, the schools were hostile and antagonistic about even being challenged to change at all, even when they admitted something weren’t working…at all.

    • This reply was modified 7 years, 2 months ago by Mackeyser.

    Sports is the crucible of human virtue. The distillate remains are human vice.

    #65019
    Billy_T
    Participant

    Good article, WV.

    Both Dewey and Morris were amazing thinkers, though I probably lean more toward Morris overall in outlook . . . I think he’d be comfortable calling himself a “libertarian socialist,” which is the closest label to my own views, if I have to take one . . . but he also used just “socialist,” or “communist,” or “anarchist-communist” at times.

    Have mentioned the book before, but to me, it’s a must-read for leftists. And it’s short (to help the time-stressed) — too short, in my view, cuz it was excellent and I wanted more. The author’s focus is on the Paris Commune of 1871, which was a profoundly important event for Morris . . . and several other left-anarchist thinkers in the book, especially Elisee Reclus and Petr Kropotkin, along with Morris.

    Dewey was an American pragmatist, so I can see him thinking we should educate based on what’s doable here and now, but as the article says, radically expanding our imaginations was key for both men . . .

    This passage debunking erroneous definitions of “utopian thinking” is key as well. IMO, leftists are doing the political right’s work for it when they glibly bash that expansion of the imagination, that search for a better formation of society by using “utopian” as a slur. Marx did this at times, too, and he shouldn’t have. It’s a misunderstanding of the project.

    Neither Morris nor Dewey ever contended that utopia is an ideal fixed-state society of perfection, or that it could promise unalloyed happiness and a colorless
    end to history. On the contrary, utopia is a process the outcomes of which cannot be guaranteed and, therefore, the role, for example, of fate, suffering, and tragedy in human affairs must be taken into account.

    From this point of view utopian thinking is neither an exercise in futile dreaming nor is it nostalgia for a world or theoretical system that has been lost. Instead, utopian thought aims at what Ruth Levitas refers to as the imaginary reconstitution of society and it is best understood
    as method. Thus, utopianism is less concerned at the theoretical level with specific an education
    in conceiving alternative modes of life—imagination as hypothesis rather than as the provision of static blueprints.

    In this respect, an evident experimentalism and
    lack of dogmatism marks out their understandings of experience. As approached by Morris and Dewey the utopian process, as a matter of course, acknowledges the
    contingent, the prosaic, the tentative, and the provisional in human affairs. In words that I think both Morris and Dewey would admire, utopian experience and education can be said to be crafted from “things with which [we are] familiar, simple things . . . recognizable as the things touched by the hands during the day . . . All
    drawn with admirable simplicity and excellent design — all a unity —.” These words express a common attitude that marks their respective approaches to utopianism and utopian education.

    #65020
    Billy_T
    Participant

    I need to read it closely, but a quick skim makes me think the author is trying to correct current impressions of both men. Boiled down, to bring Morris down to earth a bit more than he’s usually pictured, and to lift Dewey’s eyes upward more than he’s generally seen. In a sense, to make Morris more “pragmatic,” and Dewey more “idealistic” than conventional wisdom would have it.

    Obviously, it’s far more complex and complicated than that. But that’s just a quick, snap response.

    Thanks for the article.

    #65021
    Billy_T
    Participant

    Quick general comment:

    To me, if we can’t radically expand the imaginary of every single kid in America during those formative years, it’s simply never going to happen for most. Not under capitalism. Once they move into the job world and become a cog in the machine, become commodities themselves, in search of other commodities to consume, fight over, fight against, etc. etc. it’s too late. And society has basically committed mass child abuse.

    There is no better time to open their minds to the endless possibilities of better worlds, through art, music, literature, philosophy, etc. etc. . . . as we also teach them math, science and critical thinking skills. And all of this can be integrated holistically into teaching how to imagine wildly different forms of Being, and wildly different foundations for Being.

    Of course, under capitalism, that’s not allowed. Cuz, if kids actually grew up believing “anything is possible” then they’d reject capitalism outright, and the powers that be know this. Which is why they’re so busy telling kids via all means possible that “anything is possible” within the extremist, soul-crushing and extremely narrow confines of the capitalist system. As long as they paint by the numbers they can do “anything” pre-approved. “Lean in and go for it!! Ye future entrepreneurs (cogs in the machine)!!”

    #65044
    Mackeyser
    Moderator

    Well, all that philosophizing is fine and well, but what about my conundrum???

    Sports is the crucible of human virtue. The distillate remains are human vice.

    #65046
    zn
    Moderator

    Well, all that philosophizing is fine and well, but what about my conundrum???

    I assume you’re referring to which school you sent your own kids to, the arts school or the regular public school. This from me is some free wandering within the general confines of the same topic.

    This to me is always a personal decision. In my view we rightly support public schools by paying for them, and we support them out of principle. I am not for using those public funds to support private schools of any kind. That’s even in the individual instance, Mack, like yours, where particular local issues make it a difficult choice. Maybe there are some alternative ways to think of this, ones that don’t hand the ball and the game to religious and right libertarian special interests?

    In terms of the adequacy or inadequacy of any given public school, at the level of principle, that to me is always a local issue. Conditions aren’t always the same. Both my kids did absolutely fine in public schools and one had special medical conditions involved that directly impacted learning. Different schools have different issues with special needs kids. That changes, I assume, from district to district and state to state.

    My view is that we simply cannot afford as a society to make public school funding optional in any way shape or form that robs public schools of their general mandate. That’s on top of the fact that the people who have taken over the charter school movement are basically asking us to fund directly religious schools. That is completely unacceptable.

    Way back when, in a previous century, I attended a jesuit prep high school. In retrospect, in spite of being at the time a troublesome and generally half-hearted student, I like what they offered. But I would never endorse using public money to support that school. And that’s even granting that in my case anyway there was no religious orientation directing the curriculum—it was just a secular school under the jesuit banner. Even given that, they crossed a line by being identified with a religious orientation, and to me that line has to be absolute IMO.

    .

    #65050
    waterfield
    Participant

    One significant issue between the charter school system and public schools is whether or not charter schools are under the federal mandate when it comes to educating children with special needs. The general rule in these matters is that if you accept federal money you must comply with federal laws that govern public schools. However there are many exceptions to that when it comes to charter schools that are primarily based on a religious orientation-notwithstanding federal money. For instance because allegedly many don’t have the resources they have been allowed to farm out students with disabilities to public schools for the sole purpose of providing the necessary related services to allow the child access to a “reasonable” education. So a parent who is raising a child with special needs may not be able to have their child educated in either a charter school or most certainly a strictly private school. And even if the charter school is required to provide “some” related services to a disabled student it certainly is not of the same kind and quality required by IDEA -the federal mandate for public schools. IDEA=Individuals with Disabilities Educational Act)

    And our new Secretary of Education knows absolutely nothing about these overlapping issues and worse the Republicans in congress-with the exception of two women-simply don’t care if she does. For a President to come into office on the premise that its the politicians who have messed up our governance-this is about as political as it can get !!

    • This reply was modified 7 years, 2 months ago by waterfield.
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